Border protection in the age of hybrid warfare: Winning the invisible battle

00:00:02: Welcome to Signals, the defense podcast from Roder &

00:00:08: Schwartz.

00:00:16: Today's topic is something that affects not only national security but the security of Europe as a whole protecting borders in an era of hybrid warfare.

00:00:27: I'm your host Dennis P. Mackinghaus joined by my co-host Kadir Aydin.

00:00:31: Hi everyone!

00:00:33: And joining us today.

00:00:38: Managing Director of Rotten Schwarze Polska.

00:00:41: Hello, everybody!

00:00:42: My name is Maciej and I'm the Managing director of Rotter Schwarze polska... ...and I'm eight years with the company.

00:00:49: When people think about border protection they usually imagine fences cameras patrol vehicles or drones flying overhead.

00:00:57: but modern border operations are becoming far more complex than simply watching a physical boundary.

00:01:04: Today's threats are increasingly coordinated technology enabled and deliberately designed to overwhelm security forces.

00:01:12: In many cases, what appears to be irregular migration is only one visible component of a much larger hybrid operation intended to create political pressure test national resilience and distract authorities.

00:01:29: challenges that money off.

00:01:30: these activities leave electromagnetic signatures long before they become visible.

00:01:35: so much how Did border protection change?

00:01:39: Can you give us the view on a bigger

00:01:41: picture?".

00:01:42: Yes.

00:01:43: Historically, the border security in Poland has changed that.

00:01:47: many years ago people were trying to leave our country and now we are facing the opposite reality where people are trying to get into it.

00:01:57: In recent three decades The main challenge was smuggling of goods cigarettes alcohol etc.

00:02:06: That, of course has changed with the threats in the East.

00:02:10: With increasing illegal migration and now the threats have become much more complex.

00:02:17: Well dear listeners you already guessed it we're gonna talk about Polish border In this episode.

00:02:23: so much a tell us a little bit all up difficulties Border security in Poland is facing at the moment.

00:02:31: So actually when we are discussing border security, it is a complex issue because we're dealing with aerospace.

00:02:39: We are dealing natural borders such as across the river to east and west And of course land-border.

00:02:45: so looking from outside first visible change to Polish border security physical fence which has been built along most of the length for Polish Eastern border, and this is a new development roughly five years in the making.

00:03:02: Which provides increased level physical security.

00:03:06: However number of illegal crossing attempts have increased greatly And the nature of threats along the border with Ukraine also changed following the threat activities on East.

00:03:20: Sort of first barrier is physical, but I guess there's more to it.

00:03:25: We've talked in a previous episode about border protection already.

00:03:28: my question would be did Poland already establish other measures to protect the border

00:03:33: currently?

00:03:34: In addition to physical fence There's a range of sensors from thermal cameras infrared cameras night vision devices day observation cameras mobile observation outposts Drone surveillance is deployed, and of course ground patrols.

00:03:50: Now this generates a number of issues.

00:03:53: First of all the border is protected by several different organizations.

00:03:58: So you have the army territorial defense Border guard troops The police force etc... so the first challenge Is to coordinate different communication methods Of these various organizations.

00:04:14: we are running into challenges of spectrum management.

00:04:17: That's number one, second challenge is that the sensors which I mentioned our more or less line-of-sight sensor.

00:04:26: so from a drone off course you can see a lot but you cannot fly across to the other side too monitor um.

00:04:33: So this is the limitation of the border and looking at the map You may not realize it.

00:04:40: actually parts of the Polish Eastern border run across very difficult terrain, marshes rivers lakes.

00:04:48: Parts of it are quite difficult to access.

00:04:52: I remember at one of the recent conferences in Poland that Deputy Chief of Staff was mentioning The Difficult Terrain Of Border In Poland.

00:05:04: The difficult terrain has an impact on reaction time Because even if you have sensor outputs, your physically need to send let's say a security team to place where the breach is detected.

00:05:17: And sometimes it just individuals but often we are dealing with large groups of people trying to cross the border illegally.

00:05:26: And here is where the portfolio of Roder Schwarz comes into play because focusing on RF sensors and beyond horizon detection, Roder Schwartz has that technology to detect threats much further than just a visual sensor in both sides at the border.

00:05:48: morning time when discussing this issue with customers I often say that what's wrong as fast delivers is reaction time not so much the technology it's not.

00:06:00: The customer is not visible but a reaction time is very clear deliverable and visit.

00:06:06: something where we can add value to current border protection methods,

00:06:12: is what are the priorities or the operational priorities that they have at the moment.

00:06:23: So number one, is there unlimited and uncontrolled migration?

00:06:27: so to put it plainly illegal migration trying to forcefully cross a border?

00:06:32: That's number-one concern.

00:06:34: but also if the border is being monitored in physical crossing points.

00:06:38: with Ukraine for example QPS system has been installed in number of border crossing is already proving successful with a recent story in the news where a large shipment of cash was being detected or even shipment of gold carried on the person.

00:06:54: And here, QPS system our standard security systems proved very valuable.

00:06:59: however that border also has an airspace aspect and there's drone operations.

00:07:05: so recently we have tested out droning system.

00:07:08: it has proven to be quite effective during demonstrations and trials detecting illegal, illegal drones.

00:07:17: But we need to remember that portfolio of Roles-Faz is much wider.

00:07:21: We are providing a range of let's just say satellite monitoring technologies where we can help detect other communication methods also used by smugglers and by illegal migrants And that is an unique capability offered by Roles Faz.

00:07:38: You saw there listener.

00:07:40: it's important for you know The QPS is the Roden Schwartz security scanner that you might know from the airport, but it's not only being used at airports.

00:07:50: It as you can hear also been used at borders.

00:07:54: so much a youth address already.

00:07:56: what road and Schwartz could contribute to protect the border?

00:07:59: To the Polish forces we have had some new products or so recently For instance, Torres and we have had talks about it in one of our previous episodes.

00:08:10: Do you think Torres can be used at the border as well?

00:08:14: Does that make sense?

00:08:15: I think so because definition on a boarder again is quite large In the Polish nomenclature.

00:08:22: We are now using their border belt to understand something over much wider area than just line up.

00:08:30: So critical infrastructure protection becomes very important.

00:08:34: And here is where Taurus can become the capability gap filler of existing systems that are fielded already at the border and also, The nature or threats changing.

00:08:50: traditionally you could say that the border came under civilian even if it was illegal.

00:08:56: It's a civilian threat by various criminal groups et cetera, but currently we are facing various elements and spectrum of hybrid warfare.

00:09:06: And behind that our possibly state players.

00:09:09: so this line between electromagnetic warfare and simple counter UAV detection is becoming blurred.

00:09:18: So the border has its military protection aspect and it's civilian protection aspect Touching line of these two threats.

00:09:33: Yeah, exactly and as we've heard in earlier episodes Thoris is able to exactly do that especially for drone defense not only In a military sense but it can also be used for border security organizations And the such.

00:09:49: and It's also important For you dear listener To know and You might have heard this in an earlier episode As well That before mentioned our dronus counter u.s system is now for us

00:10:01: what's important to understand.

00:10:02: often people say things about let's say uh counter uav jamming or kinetic effectors basically shooting drones down in various ways.

00:10:14: well actually during peacetime both of these methods are not available.

00:10:19: you cannot freely jam electromagnetic spectrum and drones operate on a very wide the range of frequencies close to civilian areas, so it's not an easy issue to jam.

00:10:30: And also jamming.

00:10:32: cross-border internavination is problematic.

00:10:36: Colloquially speaking shooting down a drone is very limited especially during peacetime.

00:10:42: under current Polish law only military units can do that under strict conditions and again has risk when operating closer border with other nations.

00:10:53: However, with Taurus looking forward to possible laser deployment that gives a whole new range of possibilities where you can kinetically affect the drone without any collateral damage.

00:11:05: You mentioned earlier about the different organizations that protect Poland's border.

00:11:13: how do they work together?

00:11:14: How does all... I mean their abundance of information is out there and then Decide who goes where.

00:11:24: Well, we know from discussing this problem with the customers that this is one of a major challenges because all these organizations work in their own communication networks will be on frequency ranges so connecting them together inner secure way as a major challenge.

00:11:43: managing the spectrum and basically fusing all the sensor data into one common operational image.

00:11:50: there are some local local solutions which have been deployed by the Polish government, but it's seen as a weakness and definitely an area that could be improved.

00:12:00: And this is... This is a major problem.

00:12:03: to speak simply how police officer can talk to border guard officer?

00:12:08: How they communicate with military command across wireless?

00:12:18: for example, with Terran software and combining all these communication methods together into one common operational picture.

00:12:26: Did the AI bubble already reach to Polish forces?

00:12:30: So how would it be?

00:12:31: The way they detect...

00:12:33: I cannot discuss operational matters but of course given that pure amount of data is no longer possible analyze it manually.

00:12:43: So AI has to be employed analyzing patterns and traffic, as we know this is an area that's developing very fast.

00:12:54: so looking forward AI seems the only solution for tackling a big data challenge which is the border because The border is open in many places.

00:13:09: You can, for example the border will be Russia with legal movement across even with Kaliningrad region that's opened to some extent and of course we view Ukraine.

00:13:22: so we are dealing with legal traffic across the border.

00:13:26: an out-of-the volume information anomalies and illegal activity has been selected Outside of remote areas across small villages, roads and towns.

00:13:38: So this civilian movement very close to the border And all these represents a challenge given the volume of obsensors which are deployed.

00:13:48: Would you say that Rodin Schwarz is well positioned To answer the challenges after Polish forces here?

00:13:54: What sets Rolish Fars apart Is our history in Poland Which has more than fifty years presence on market.

00:14:01: Quite recently we have established Woldoszwars Polska, which is a separate legal entity.

00:14:06: We had very long track record with majority of Polish forces not only in the military but police and government units as well.

00:14:15: We are a trusted partner, which is very relevant to various aspects of Polish security.

00:14:20: For example the polish f-sixteenths fly with Rodasz Wadz radios quite recently updated into the latest block fifty two standard and of course our success in the navy and other electronic warfare projects.

00:14:33: so we have well positioned.

00:14:34: uh...we have intimacy with the customer ...We understand that customers can trust us given our track record of constant delivery on time.

00:14:46: Excellent, so operational benefit the customer gets from Roder Schwarz basically is early threat detection improved situational awareness and a detection beyond visual range.

00:14:59: are there any more operational benefits that you could think off?

00:15:03: Well having an additional benefit which may not be that apparent experience in protecting the border and other nations.

00:15:12: So for example, our experience of a Middle East in Finland Norway over countries in Europe the Baltics.

00:15:20: we deliver all this experience you can say lessons learned to the Polish customer on and this is major added value.

00:15:28: that are companies probably cannot they're not claim.

00:15:32: however having said but when it's too remember that strategic local partner would be a requirement for us, because being at technology company we often need a local partner for integration and implementation.

00:15:47: So this remains an open question in the dialogue which Roder Schwarz is happy to continue with possible partners locally.

00:15:59: There's

00:16:01: one more threat which is also considered the border threat, not visible but an incursion into Polish electromagnetic spectrum and that interference to GPS signal.

00:16:13: Which technology only available for a state actor?

00:16:16: But there are parts of Poland especially in the east or north experiencing heavy GPS signal depreciation.

00:16:24: Here Rothschwarz can help countering this threat in identifying the threat, locating it and taking proactive measures to mitigate GPS interference which parts of a country are experiencing.

00:16:40: So the spectrum will not become but already is as important as physical border itself?

00:16:47: That's correct!

00:16:48: The spectrum has been contested across the border and another threat that must be considered on top of the physical one.

00:16:56: Well

00:16:56: dear listener As we've heard today, Border Protection is evolving into a multi-domain security environment.

00:17:04: It's not only just the border itself anymore.

00:17:07: now were looking at that whole picture.

00:17:09: Maciej thank you very much for giving us your time.

00:17:14: Thank you Dennis and I would like to invite our listeners.

00:17:18: if possible.

00:17:19: they can attend MSPO trade show coming up shortly in the beginning of September in MSPO Kielce short drive from Warsaw, where we'll be exhibiting our technologies and drop by have a chat.

00:17:33: And maybe we can go into little bit more details of our technology in how it can be used to protect the Polish border?

00:17:40: Excellent!

00:17:41: If you like today's episode please do what should on social media visit our Border Security website and download our brochures and expert papers.

00:17:50: also as Michel just said swing by our booth at MSPO in Kielce and we'll be back with new technological insights into order in Schwarz very soon.

00:18:00: Stay tuned, here you later!

00:18:03: Bye bye.