Multi-Domain Communications: The future of military communications

00:00:02: Welcome to Signals, the defense podcast from Roder & Schwartz.

00:00:16: Today's topic is multi-domain communications – The future of military communication.

00:00:22: I'm your host Dennis P. Merklinghaus joined by my cohost Kadir Aydin.

00:00:26: Hi everyone!

00:00:28: And today we're talking about something that will fundamentally shape the future for military operations Not another sensor not a platform but the communication infrastructure that connects everything.

00:00:41: Joining us today is Andreas Domann, Vice President Multidomain Directional Communications System Roter & Schwarz.

00:00:49: Hello everybody thanks for inviting me to be.

00:00:52: it's a pleasure.

00:00:53: as armed forces move towards highly connected all domain operations communications itself becomes decisive capability.

00:01:01: crude and uncrewed platforms in air sea land space All need to exchange enormous amounts of information and data securely, reliably.

00:01:11: And under the most challenging electromagnetic conditions.

00:01:15: let's start with a bigger picture.

00:01:16: military operations are becoming increasingly networked.

00:01:19: why is communication suddenly become such as strategic capability?

00:01:23: Communication always was our utmost importance so they lead into command that it's always big topic but in nowadays additional momentum.

00:01:37: We have new players, which are the unmanned or the uncrewed type of platforms in all domains –in air and ground– in the Navy And they need to be orchestrated and brought-in.

00:01:50: Secondly there is a significant demand on data.

00:01:54: In the past we were with voice.

00:01:56: A lot most nearly everything was done with voice.

00:01:59: Then we had small band topics like link sixteen which is extremely effective, but uses a very small bandwidth.

00:02:08: We are talking here in the SMS size and In the future there's much more demand on data.

00:02:14: I want to show videos.

00:02:15: that one There is.

00:02:16: a lot of more participants will be there.

00:02:19: It is like little bit like the internet that we know already from at home And this Internet kicked off really as soon as bandwidth was available.

00:02:29: so when the DSL was there because then you can have Traffic with distributors' participants, you have IP protocols they can run.

00:02:38: This is the part that's a combat cloud of this future communication which it about to build and there are big parts in the future.

00:02:47: so these unmanned participants, manned participants exchanging significant amount data in an orchestrated way... ...this has been a huge part for the future to come The technology we're going to prepare.

00:03:03: So we can say that legacy military communication methodologies technologies came to their limits and now We need to get two new technologies to answer today's needs And that's why NEMEX comes in.

00:03:17: There are new demands.

00:03:18: Now.

00:03:18: this voice topic is very effective, but the new request on bandwidth Is now a topic.

00:03:25: This requires new answers.

00:03:26: NEMex is the brand Odin Schwartz has launched during the ELA.

00:03:31: It makes it an acronym and stands for Networked Multi-Point Array Communication Systems.

00:03:36: And this is at the end our contribution, there's a set of devices in network technology that will enable other participants to join into these new combat cloud.

00:03:48: due to comprehensive networks coming all domains We want to have a contribution interlink those participant or subscribers.

00:03:57: This not only initiative from the company, but it is one of those that really comprehensively looks and all domains.

00:04:08: Well you already touched upon link-sixteen for example.

00:04:11: so existing tactical data links have served on forces well for decades.

00:04:16: what is changing now?

00:04:18: Two things are changing... On the one hand their number of participants will extremely increase.

00:04:25: This is by factor of thousands and even ten thousand.

00:04:29: And for this to orchestrate such a network, you need bandwidth simply... ...to have enough throughput.

00:04:36: otherwise you'll put all the traffic through very thin hole which does not work at end.

00:04:44: So that's one topic.

00:04:45: The second is as we see in current wars electronic warfare threats are real and they are part of today's theater when it comes to those kind of conflicts.

00:04:59: And the new communication uses directional beams, very much directional beams... ...and those have a huge advantage because they help you detecting that your communicating.. ..and they help not get interfered.

00:05:14: so this is big game changer

00:05:17: Exactly!

00:05:17: So communications & data exchange becoming harder to detect intercepts or disrupt.

00:05:24: Exactly, this is one of the key topics besides the bandwidth.

00:05:28: so what we are providing and what we're about to develop it's a set of ISA devices that there's a new kind of radius very compact ,very powerful And this ISA stands for Active Electronity Steered Antennas.

00:05:44: So with these you can really have kind-of directed communication With among partners their flying around, they're rolling.

00:05:54: You can compare this with imagine you are in the sleeping room and there is this mosquito that annoys you.

00:06:02: And now what we were doing at end was tracking this mosquito With a laser beam.

00:06:10: This is little bit challenging but as your have the mosquitos In the laser beam you can handle it.

00:06:17: a comparison of what we are doing there.

00:06:19: So quite challenging, but it works or It will work.

00:06:23: so We have a shift from currently omnidirectional transmission to directed transmission which comes with benefits and higher throughput.

00:06:32: Yeah But it comes also With A bigger amount Of management requirements?

00:06:38: How do we solve that?

00:06:39: by calculation power?

00:06:43: At the end those devices There Will be Calculation Monsters But the good news is, their capability is even better available today.

00:06:52: So there are much more parts and a lot of calculation power.

00:06:56: that's not a topic anymore.

00:06:57: You have to bring it into the air or devices.

00:06:59: so they're restrictions on size weight and power.

00:07:03: Even cost for sure but at least technology can be used On larger extent.

00:07:10: There also new network which is arising.

00:07:14: you'll get more challenges and more demands to bring those participants, who talk with each other.

00:07:20: Today we've directed comms.

00:07:22: you switch on the device... ...and physically everybody can talk to one another.

00:07:26: when it comes to military protected communication there is a little bit more to do because they need to find themselves in their need to alter indicate everything.

00:07:34: but In this directed world You need make sure that the right participants see eachother see in kind of comparison.

00:07:44: They can hear us as the beam is there, that you're talking to the right participants and then they do follow this track the participant while he's moving or behind a tree.

00:07:55: This overall network needs to be set up but it also part what we are doing here with communication management suite.

00:08:02: There will be apart piece-of software with crypto embedded which run on every platform A node, each participant forms a note in this network and from there we are what you know.

00:08:16: In the internet.

00:08:17: it will be similar technologies but adapted for military contact.

00:08:21: Perfect!

00:08:22: And as far I am informed that piece of software is highly autonomous so it won't manage by an operator like doing the routing

00:08:32: etc.,

00:08:32: but automatically routed depending on assets which are interfaced or integrated.

00:08:38: This is true.

00:08:39: That's exactly what we are after, there will not be someone who plugs the connections together.

00:08:46: this would done by software.

00:08:48: they'll even embedded a lot of AI artificial intelligence but it isn't necessary.

00:08:55: this artificial intelligence help to find best solution in dedicated context because at end will be demanded by the operators.

00:09:05: They want to say, okay I want to transfer this message to that participant and it needs to be urgent or i have a big video to upload so it can be done in a minute maybe?

00:09:14: And then The software on the system helps to find the right way in the right priority... ...and even reports back.

00:09:22: look!

00:09:23: It is available right now..the bandwidth is broad now but in a minutes.

00:09:28: ..it'll boil down into very small bandwidths.

00:09:32: There is the command for radio silence in a minute.

00:09:36: So, do your transmission before this maybe?

00:09:39: And it can be managed.

00:09:41: and that's real scenario where we set up the preconditions... ...and support to enable operators and system providers.. ..to use these new architecture accordingly.

00:09:53: Okay what will happen with...?

00:09:55: The legacy systems like legacy radios, the ones which are transmitting omnidirectional.

00:10:01: Will they be replaced completely by these new technologies or will there a transition period?

00:10:06: Or how can we imagine

00:10:09: that this they would complement each other?

00:10:12: Legacy is sounds old but it does not hold.

00:10:15: There's a lot of innovation also done in this domain.

00:10:18: They will have to stay.

00:10:19: this omni directional topic Is very proven.

00:10:22: It can bridge law distances.

00:10:25: It's sometimes easier to handle, even in the land domain by example.

00:10:30: They're currently setting up this new scheme into German Army ELBO.

00:10:35: This is based on existing frequencies.

00:10:38: it's omnidirectional but extremely capable and provides a significant network context.

00:10:45: In a way its not been there yet.

00:10:47: However if it about broadband with They will use satellite communication or maybe this new technology and they'll add it.

00:10:56: But, uh... It's-it will complement each other.

00:10:59: You still have voice communication in the flying domain with the pilots Because its simply extremely easy as a natural way of communicating things.

00:11:13: However there might be situations where the pilot is not allowed to talk for operational reasons or when he talks also as a comparison, talks to the unmanned body.

00:11:29: then not do this by language.

00:11:32: Maybe that command comes via language but transmission and the command itself will be data stream.

00:11:40: so there is future for both worlds.

00:11:45: we'll see which best student in what context It increases the choices for operators to use either channel.

00:11:55: There will be satellite communication, there is optical communication already in place on satellites.

00:12:02: maybe it comes down into a closed-earth domain... ...there are those frequencies that we do have right now around the one gigahertz domain.

00:12:13: There'll be more choice simply and this however needs to be managed.

00:12:19: But we want to do it or we have to provide in a way that is extremely easy To handle for the operators and he can make use and he sees what he has.

00:12:31: That's the idea.

00:12:32: Okay, Can you walk us through a scenario?

00:12:34: For instance where an able naval platform detects a threat And how NEMEX can play a role in that scenario?

00:12:42: Yes for sure this will be very likely scenario.

00:12:47: It's existing right now, but Nemax might make things much easier.

00:12:51: So assume the Navy detects a threat or something that they don't like.

00:12:57: They can then automatically and not detectable for others Protected And Not Detectable forward this information to the uncrewed vessel which is our uncrewd vessels there around The uncrew it Flying gadgets, they are also in the air and to a fighter surrounded by another unmanned group.

00:13:29: They communicate then decide that this is how we do it or the fighter sends someone out to check what his strat is about... ...they find something which we should observe but not act.

00:13:46: The ref fighter reports it back to the ship and this can be done in a minute or half-a-minute.

00:13:52: And no one else really recognizes what is happening, that there's such communication being done... ...and most of them will be detected with support from computers at AI.

00:14:08: At the end, the commander on the ship can recognize if something has been evaluated.

00:14:15: We are going to watch, but there is not much manual interference needed anymore as it was in the past.

00:14:22: And important protected information so that can be done despite others trying to hinder this kind of communication.

00:14:32: Interesting!

00:14:33: We're talking about fighters we talk about air domain and dogfights... ...and a lot of listeners think of Topkan obviously.

00:14:42: But what you're describing, you have uncrewed vessels flying.

00:14:48: You've all of these different assets in the air.

00:14:51: is this completely different from what we saw on television back in the day or even a few years ago with Maverick coming out?

00:14:59: Yeah it's obvious that here the fighter pilot isn't there to focus but their movie already out.

00:15:10: they are having unmanned vehicles on board or as a companion.

00:15:15: And I would assume that Maverick, what is the next one?

00:15:17: Three will have also some uncrewed team members.

00:15:23: so let's see.

00:15:24: Yeah this is something where all the Navy and Air Forces are after right now.

00:15:30: The keywords you can see This CCA colorative combat aircraft.

00:15:36: Or it´s a drone A Combat Drone State of the art, United States is employing it.

00:15:45: They have drones out.

00:15:47: they can shoot a rocket to a target on a far distance.

00:15:55: so The topic or idea concept in this concept is power projection And that's what I do and these unmet fellows will play their role.

00:16:07: It's for sure very demanding Unmanned fighter or unmanned flying vehicle into such a group of airplanes, but there's lot effort being spent currently to do it.

00:16:23: And he is traded in very regulated way.

00:16:42: forward into the red environments, so to say.

00:16:44: The adversary environment or whatever you want where they will not appear as a fighter aircraft, but they're still hidden.

00:16:53: And via Nemax the information gathered can be sent back safely to the fighter pilots that can then assess the informations and send it back to headquarters and so on.

00:17:04: This is basically shift in warfare tactics isn't?

00:17:09: What are we talking about today?

00:17:10: sixth generation warfare.

00:17:12: Yeah this is the current outline for sure To bring us into context.

00:17:17: Those concepts are very much driven from the United States.

00:17:22: The European reflection of this is F-CAS, Future Combat Aircraft System.

00:17:28: It's a little bit blurry because that aircraft in this word but it's thought and meant as system covering all domains However...very much driven and focused on this aircraft.

00:17:42: But there's more behind those.

00:17:45: Those ideas were known some decades ago, like Network-Centric Warfare.

00:17:50: Those are the ideas very much promoted from the United States.

00:17:54: Today.

00:17:54: those concepts are named joint all domain command and control with the according acronym And it outlines what is the idea behind have a combat cloud Have the man to unmanned topics and connect All those participants on the battlefield With modern means.

00:18:14: This is not just information, so this much more than what Orden-Schwarz provides.

00:18:19: We are going until they have the kind of infrastructure with lower layers in network but there will run very comprehensive applications like data streams and sensor fusion.

00:18:32: as you might imagine bandwidths always a key.

00:18:37: So those ideas spread currently within NATO.

00:18:43: Famous F-XV aircraft is considered fifth generation just to bring it into context.

00:18:49: The Eurofighter that we are having in Europe, is considered fourth generation.

00:18:54: the new fighter which is hopefully or somehow being built In this context should be a sixth generation fighter.

00:19:01: but communication and things We're doing right now Is all aimed To cover those needs on those ideas of the six generations.

00:19:10: Sixth generation lot of autonomy Bandwidth participants, they can talk to each other meant unmet.

00:19:16: So those are the ideas behind this topics.

00:19:19: from news we learned that fcass program was stopped and you were referring just To fcas.

00:19:26: so what is it now?

00:19:28: Is it stop?

00:19:28: That's a good question.

00:19:29: in fact It's not however bought the perception And what is promoted is little bit disturbing.

00:19:37: so F cuts itself is As I mentioned the idea, the European reflection of these six generation topics.

00:19:44: So this is more a program name in Europe and there's other F-Casts like this GCAP by example from the UK and from Italy.

00:19:51: This also part of this context.

00:19:54: so what has been stocked?

00:19:56: And What difficult it.

00:19:59: next generation weapon system NGWS ?

00:20:03: This is the formal part where the contracts were And this contains more or less three major topics.

00:20:11: One is the six-generation fighter, and that's exactly what went difficult between Germany and France.

00:20:18: The second part of combat cloud is new information architecture with all technology and things in it.

00:20:26: This is continuing.

00:20:27: There are significant demands.

00:20:30: Thirdly, unmanned or uncrewed elements.

00:20:34: This continues As you see on the press Everybody's after having unmanned participants flying, swimming and rolling.

00:20:43: And the Combat Cloud this significant information exchange protected information bandwidth in the air everywhere.

00:20:52: This is what people like and need.

00:20:54: so if you had products already available we could sell them.

00:20:58: So this continuing into broader context I only can quote Minister of Defense, they want to set this up.

00:21:09: This new generation fighter in a new way.

00:21:12: Germany wants to get in the lead and as far as I know there are about two forged another alliance in Europe with partners that already active or active in their background.

00:21:27: so let's see... something politics is doing and then setting it up And we wait for the outcome.

00:21:35: But from what I observed, there is a clear willingness and the need to get something like this into their fleet.

00:21:44: So at the end it's difficult.

00:21:47: It has always its new land Its politically loaded those topics but will continue And we as an industry do our share and concentrate on technology solutions for this

00:22:02: Even though AFKAS or parts of AFKASS are stopped.

00:22:06: We continue working because and I guess we're in part of the Comet Cloud, it is still essential to the next generation of warfare so that we will play an important role in communication there?

00:22:21: Yes this is the heritage and strength for the Schwarz very strong military communication in all domains.

00:22:28: So a clear decision from Schwarz.

00:22:32: have the contribution there in this domain, so we are developing solutions and talking to all these significant players.

00:22:40: So those platform providers they're active in Germany but also with others that are active in Europe And also partners outside of Europe.

00:22:49: They want to get active here.

00:22:52: So this is quite a challenge for us to cover all those discussions there.

00:22:57: But it's the joint search and a joint quest of the right solution, so everybody about how can he employ?

00:23:07: And can you abet these new possibilities with this new bandwidths, this new data exchange... ...and we are about what they need in order to support their right solutions.

00:23:18: This is a reflection also to some extent what's happening there in this larger F-Cast domain.

00:23:25: Here are the list of requirements, can you please provide me with your right product and we take it from the shelf?

00:23:33: We jointly look for solutions so that the quest will take few years but its extremely concrete!

00:23:42: A lot of industries work on those topics.

00:23:47: You mentioned the laser pointer pointed to the mosquito before.

00:23:51: Yeah, and I was instantly thinking of okay laser maybe for communications as well because it is used in a space domain already between satellites For instance.

00:24:01: can you imagine or would you find?

00:24:04: It's meaningful to investigate in that regarding our technology In depth respect

00:24:09: absolutely yes likely for those companies They have a great experience with laser because it's in different domain than radio waves.

00:24:20: What we're going to try is strong end.

00:24:22: my personal assumption as Laser communication or the optical communication that for this you use laser, Is The common state of the art For the backbone and for the inter-satellite Communication.

00:24:35: This is currently a State Of The Art And With This You Can Transmit Significant Broad Data.

00:24:42: this is what they're doing, typically backbone.

00:24:45: This laser communication has a few limitations.

00:24:49: first of all it only can be done point-to-point.

00:24:53: so a satellite in the sky or space have four laser communications terminals to maintain those multipoint connections.

00:25:05: we could do multipoint with one antenna.

00:25:08: another limitation is dust and fog.

00:25:11: The higher you get with the bandwidth, and light is a very high bandwidth.

00:25:15: You have limitations for fog and this attenuation.

00:25:18: So air it's a topic of attenuation but fog and humidity are another one.

00:25:23: And then for sure every leaf or stone has a blockage.

00:25:27: so I assume my personal assumption that This will have an impact in the higher altitudes For flying devices.

00:25:37: Those there would be above clouds But below, I believe the restrictions i just mentioned will rather point to the radio communication topics.

00:25:48: And from what we see right now We can get all the performance they would compare to a laser communication with our radio communication.

00:25:58: With less effort is less power consumption was less installation effort Was the radio is directed beams.

00:26:06: On the last episode we talked about Taurus and learned that it is sensoragnostic, factoragnostic.

00:26:11: So maybe we can say that also Nemax's communication is agnostic.

00:26:16: so you can integrate any means of communications in the Nemex suit?

00:26:21: Yeah absolutely this key.

00:26:23: The operator should have a choice And different channels have different capabilities or characteristics.

00:26:32: It is great for the operators to use them and pick the right one.

00:26:36: I think this key, that's what we want to provide when we do the provisions form.

00:26:42: Thank you Andreas for all of these information You've already given us.

00:26:46: When will i see it in the next Maverick movie?

00:26:51: It depends on whether the next mavericks movie is going to be produced.

00:26:56: My personal guess would be Mavericks III

00:26:59: So Top Gun four.

00:27:03: Yeah, at the end I was fearing that you asked me when you can purchase this in Amazon.

00:27:09: At The End it might be a brilliant idea to open up a web shop on this but It's business-to-business topic.

00:27:16: so usually our customers are platform providers and big ones.

00:27:20: i guess the first model is flying.

00:27:23: You will see end of next year.

00:27:25: This will be demonstrators.

00:27:26: We'll release those those accesses, hopefully then in the press.

00:27:30: But uh...the products really I assume to be ready into let's say three years two years something like this

00:27:37: that close wow

00:27:39: yeah sure technology is running fast but a major part integration degrades such new device into a platform.

00:27:49: This is some effort.

00:27:51: you need to be closed to the skin outside of the skin not just an antennae.

00:27:55: You have to make sure that it does not harm other electronic devices like high power radars and things like this.

00:28:03: But, its evolving!

00:28:04: And those in two or three years the results will be there... ...and teams are working on their full steam to get done.

00:28:13: Well, very quickly before we end this episode.

00:28:17: You mentioned antenna and it's a very important for you dear listeners to know that is not typical antenna like on your roof or something.

00:28:26: It rarely has any impact in the infrastructure of an aircraft or any vessel.

00:28:32: Its'a very thin kind panel!

00:28:35: It looks like piece chocolate from outside And small elements you bite.

00:28:43: These are the antenna elements, they have a reference to wavelengths and so on.

00:28:48: So the smaller... The wavelength is higher than frequency it's used.

00:28:52: at the end.

00:28:52: you combine hundreds of those small antenna elements To get beam forming, to steer them And these things.

00:29:01: They're done with a lot calculation power.

00:29:04: But this how we can use modern antennas.

00:29:08: They look flat but do interesting thing.

00:29:11: Well, dear listener thank you for listening.

00:29:14: As you've heard today's discussion highlighted an important reality.

00:29:18: as operations become increasingly connected communications itself becomes a mission critical capability and this is where the Roder-Schwarz NEMAC system comes in.

00:29:30: it was developed to provide that foundation for secure directional communications, resilient multi-link networking high capacity data exchange interoperability across all operational domains as Andreas has mentioned and a communications backbone for the combat clouds.

00:29:51: Thank you Andreas for giving us your time!

00:29:54: It's a pleasure.

00:29:55: thanks for asking those questions and thank you for inviting me.

00:29:59: If you like todays episode Please do what you should on social media.

00:30:03: Visit our NEMEX website and download our brochures & expert papers.

00:30:08: Also visit us at the various exhibitions coming up And we'll be back with new technological insights into order in Schwartz very soon.

00:30:16: Stay tuned!

00:30:18: Here ya later

00:30:19: Bye.