THORIS - Redefining multi-sensor Counter-UAS operations

00:00:02: Welcome to Signals, the defense podcast from Roder & Schwartz.

00:00:16: Today's topic is Forrest redefining multi-sensor counter UAS operations.

00:00:22: I'm your host Dennis P. Mecklinghaus joined by my cohost Kadir Aydin.

00:00:26: Hi everyone!

00:00:27: And today we'll explore one of the fastest evolving operational challenges in modern defence and security environments How To Detect Identify Track and Respond to increasingly complex drone threats.

00:00:40: Joining us today is Jens Steinwandt.

00:00:43: My name's Jens Steinwandt, Director of Product Management for Counter Drone Systems here at Rode in Schwartz and responsible for a counter drone portfolio.

00:00:52: Thank you very much for having me on the show today!

00:00:54: Awesome thankyouforbeingonourshow.

00:00:56: Dear listeners In our last episode we talked to Janie Faran, A former Colonel And Our Global Head Of Counterdrone Market Development About The Capability Gap In Drone Defense.

00:01:06: As We've Heard Over the last decade, drones have moved from niche technologies to persistent operational realities.

00:01:14: Commercially available systems, autonomous capabilities swarm tactics and rapidly accelerating innovation cycles are exposing critical gaps in traditional air defense and security architectures.

00:01:27: as teased In our last episode we as Rodin Schwartz has recently launched forests.

00:01:33: So first of all, yes.

00:01:34: I would like to say...I'm really happy to have you on this episode today because it's the first time that we talk about a new entry in our portfolio, Thoris and as an expert will bring some light into the shadow?

00:01:50: Would you like to elaborate more on Thoris?

00:01:52: Yeah sure!

00:01:53: Absolutely!

00:01:55: Thorus is a modular multi-sensor counter US architecture which provides continuous detection checking, identification and coordinated response against the evolving drone threat.

00:02:08: You can see that drones are becoming more accessible so they can be mass-produced at very low costs.

00:02:14: They're becoming more capable.

00:02:15: also We can see great technological advancements And we can also see that they become increasingly security critical So even across these different customer groups that were serving For example from Defence Forces to Security to Law Enforcement and Critical Infrastructure Operators.

00:02:32: So the problem is that nowadays, Jones are built using really diverse technology and this technology advancement happens at a very tremendous speed.

00:02:42: Obviously we still have RF control drones that I use in the electric management spectrum.

00:02:47: they're becoming more sophisticated.

00:02:48: also there's constantly new signal types that emerging some of them by even using mobile networks or satellite links trying to hide the communication, trying to height controlling.

00:02:59: But there's also more and more RF dark drones so radio silent drones that don't use an electromagnetic link at all.

00:03:05: So the problem is really that our customers they need to be able to counter others drone types And then either unified functional chain from detection To decision-making.

00:03:15: They needed operational picture to coordinate everything and of course I need to mitigate these zone types and this Is exactly what those provides.

00:03:24: if i might if I may interrupt you there.

00:03:26: So that doesn't mean that Thoris can counter all drones?

00:03:29: Yes, exactly because is it able to count a reaper or even the global hawk?

00:03:35: So Thorus focuses on NATO-I and NATO II class of drones.

00:03:40: so these would be drones which are just under two kilos up to six hundred kilo and those other ones we're focusing here with Thorus

00:03:48: And as you said is also able to counter the dark rf dark drones including.

00:03:54: The drone's that are sent out via fiber optic cables.

00:03:58: they don't show up in this spectrum at all.

00:04:00: yes so thats correct.

00:04:01: thats what new.

00:04:02: so now we're able to also focus on those type of drones and the way were achieving business by adding additional sensors.

00:04:11: two what do you have today, A drone is sweet, for example that we have so far.

00:04:17: So that is really focusing on the RF control drones.

00:04:20: but in order to also detect and defeat non-RF controlled drones you need to add additional sensors yeah?

00:04:27: For example a radar...for example an electro optic systems or camera system acoustic sensors other type of sensors.

00:04:34: But that also means that we need additional factors.

00:04:37: Yeah!

00:04:37: The jamming doesn't work for non-ARF control drones.

00:04:41: So also other means of effectors are required,

00:04:44: e.g.,

00:04:45: the laser.

00:04:46: that's something we're working on at the moment?

00:04:48: Yeah!

00:04:48: We'll talk about the laser a little later... Let's focus on the sensor suite because this sounds extensive.

00:04:56: so we have Rodon Schwarz.

00:04:58: fourth forest has built a multi-sensor suite which is able to detect any kind of drone.

00:05:04: and could you please give us all of the sensors that we are using for that.

00:05:10: Sure, so you have a traditional RF sensor or passive RF sensor to detect and localize the drones?

00:05:19: We will have an active radar that emits pulses... ...and of course the drones even though they're small They have a small cross-section, but they're still detectable by specialized radars and electrooptical systems serve with image processing for detecting drones.

00:05:38: But also verifying that detected object is really a drone And an acoustic sensor.

00:05:46: this often required because when drones are approaching most of them you can already hear from quite far away.

00:05:54: So an acoustic sensor would really complete the set, of course there's many more.

00:05:59: and that what is nice about Thoros?

00:06:00: also?

00:06:01: it so modular its extendable ,its scalable .So even if theres new sensors emerging or technologies emerging we can add those types of sensors as well.

00:06:14: on the effectors side we're also able to integrate them in order to provide a state of the art technology.

00:06:24: To really achieve that customer mission and

00:06:27: as you dear listener might know, Rodin Schwarz used to have the capability to counter RF controlled drones via our drone suite but now has become part of forest.

00:06:40: exactly so all customers they are looking for complete solutions full protection against all kinds of drones.

00:06:49: And as you mentioned, a drone only adjusts the RF control zones with detection and jamming capabilities which is still very relevant in future.

00:07:01: but we heard that due to these other types of drones single technology approach it's no longer good enough.

00:07:07: We need to move to multi-sensor and multi effector approach.

00:07:10: So yes so with Thoris On Adonis and its legacy, we are integrating the RF capabilities.

00:07:18: But also providing these additional sensors and layers such as the sensors mentioned like radars.

00:07:25: because sensors then all that including a command-and-control software.

00:07:29: And on the effector side again We will still have the jamming capability.

00:07:34: As I've just mentioned The laser authority really fulfills to complete need of our customers for full potential against drones.

00:07:43: And that need of the customer is not only to counter a single drone, but multiple drones.

00:07:49: So I'm talking about swarms here because lately and i think we see in news and also changing operations, drones do not come alone they come in swarm.

00:08:00: so how do you address this topic?

00:08:01: Yeah

00:08:01: definitely!

00:08:03: That's quite complex issue.

00:08:05: The nice thing is that Thoris can counter-drone swamps.

00:08:09: So we can do this already with our RF layer, or rf technology for the multi band jamming for example so that jamming addresses all drones that use exactly frequency bands being jammed and again you will have laser transmits pulses at extremely high speeds actually at a speed of light to be defeated even in under seconds.

00:08:32: if there are more effectors connected to the system, then the C-II software can really help.

00:08:38: The customer to assess such a complex situation and also supports in assigning the right effectors for different drone threads.

00:08:47: so we could use these multiple effects to adjust several drones that are coming up at the same time.

00:08:52: And the core or heart of this system is the C two software suite?

00:08:59: Yes!

00:09:00: So the heart of a system is to see too, so sensors alone are not good enough.

00:09:06: You need proper workflows from detection to identification tracking decision-making obviously and also the response side And Thors was specifically designed around the centralized command control that fuses all the data streams coming form or the sensors RF radar electro optic an operational picture in real time.

00:09:28: And this operation of fusion then enables a coordinated response and reduces decision-making complexity, such high pressure

00:09:36: environments.".

00:09:37: Okay I know that you've talked about the topic already.

00:09:40: so sensor fusion?

00:09:41: You mentioned it but i think we should stress our topic little bit more... So is really hard off to system.

00:09:47: can please dive a little deeper?

00:09:49: Sure absolutely!

00:09:51: The problem was there's no a single sensor that can really solve the problem alone.

00:09:57: We need, really, the combination of different sensors.

00:10:01: so for example the RF sensing is still very valuable.

00:10:05: as mentioned many drones do rely on communication links.

00:10:09: The radar provides tracking and position awareness.

00:10:11: The electro-optical system And thermal camera They add visual detection and confirmation.

00:10:17: So each of these sensors have their strength and limitations.

00:10:21: With real value comes from fusing those data streams and combining all these data streams into a coherent picture.

00:10:28: And that means, yeah depending on what kind of drone it is at which distance.

00:10:35: so we have this different layers.

00:10:36: So the operator is really well positioned here and has always an operational picture in real time to make an assessment and decision making Of course to our customers.

00:10:48: Okay, so you mentioned the laser already a couple of times.

00:10:51: now let's talk about it a little bit more in detail.

00:10:54: we are in a partnership with company Trump from Germany.

00:10:58: Jens can you tell us what that partnership looks like and how?

00:11:02: The customer benefits from their partnership?

00:11:04: Yeah sure absolutely yeah.

00:11:06: So as you mentioned We have recently announced That they're partnering With the company trump In developing this laser effector And the reason we're doing this is because we convinced that laser is really the most promising technology in the future to provide an efficient and, more importantly a decisive response for all kinds of drones.

00:11:30: Of course you still have the jamming – it's very effective but there are never guarantees that you can counter all RF-controlled drones.

00:11:38: so then also those RF dark drones come up with another effector.

00:11:44: Why the laser?

00:11:45: Because this addresses the capability gap that we talked about in the previous episode.

00:11:50: There is an economic imbalance between cheap mass produced drones and traditional air defense system with extremely expensive missiles, yeah!

00:11:58: And obviously also puts quite a logistical burden on them.

00:12:02: A munition has to be maintained and supplied... So for example currently what you're seeing here at Ukraine Here are very small and cheap drones block any movement on the front lines.

00:12:16: That's where the laser comes in, so here with a laser every shot or every pulse that is transmitted it super cheap and fills exactly that gap and shifts back to economic advantage of protection forces then also eases supply chain regarding ammunition.

00:12:32: So we were looking for partners to develop this laser component.

00:12:38: Drumpf is a sovereign German partner.

00:12:41: And from our perspective, they're really the leading technology provider for laser systems in the industry scope.

00:12:48: but integrating the laser as an effect on the future also shows the adaptability and the scalability of Thoris and other factors For example if new technology comes up can be integrated.

00:13:00: This makes Thoris complete solutions to fulfill customer need.

00:13:04: So Thoris basically is sensor and effect or agnostic.

00:13:10: Yes, it's also platform-agnostic.

00:13:14: I don't think we've talked about this.

00:13:15: This is what nice about the modular architecture.

00:13:18: You can use that for different platforms.

00:13:20: So example at ELA in Berlin We were showcasing the Thoris laser combat system.

00:13:25: so thats one version

00:13:27: of

00:13:27: Thoris And its a complete multi layer counter drone system That integrated into an armor tactical vehicle Obviously with a laser effector that addresses capability gap that we just mentioned.

00:13:38: And with a vehicle, our goal is even to shoot on the move.

00:13:41: so it will enable movement again at the front line and that's currently not possible... ...and thereby protect the maneuvering forces against these kinds of small drones.

00:13:50: but in the Euro-Saturday we focused more on the generic architecture focusing on the multi-layer approach with several sensors and defectors controlled by the powerful C-II software, in various platforms.

00:14:03: So for example, Thoris can also be integrated into fixed and transportable installations.

00:14:08: it could be on mobile platforms that doesn't need to be a military vehicle or other type of vehicles Or could also enable platform.

00:14:17: so we really have all possibilities here from integration aside And this is what makes Thorus very special.

00:14:24: So depending on the need of the relevant customer groups, whatever they require various installations and platforms are

00:14:29: possible.".

00:14:30: You mentioned already different customer groups have different needs?

00:14:34: And we all already learned that Thoris is an agnostic system.

00:14:37: it's platform-agnostic its sensor and effector-agnastic...and what I hear from you is It also custom agnostics.

00:14:44: somehow would you

00:14:45: agree?".

00:14:46: Yes i would agree absolutely yeah.

00:14:48: so it's agnistic to the customer groups.

00:14:50: yes so far We've talked a lot about the military but there's also the law enforcement as mentioned earlier.

00:14:56: So, police forces for example they need to protect large-scale public events from potential drone strats.

00:15:03: The Thores really supports the police force by providing RF detection and electrical object systems For example.

00:15:11: some police forces can even use a radar And Police Forces require operational picture via the C-II software ready coordinate themselves and they can also use for example cyber takeover capabilities to securely place the drone at a landing zone if there is a drone threat.

00:15:30: We also have critical infrastructure operators, who don't really need to provide a response themselfs to their drones.

00:15:38: but it's more about evaluating or documenting drone flights' drone sightings that are threatening.

00:15:45: So they will not counter the drones themselves, but rather than alert police that there is an incident.

00:15:52: The critical infrastructure operators mainly just need detection capability such as the RF or camera for example and a nice thing about Thoris really depends on the drone threat.

00:16:05: depending upon customer group individual sensors and factors can be selected to fulfill their mission And of course the C-II software controls all that.

00:16:18: So even if something changes, a new law comes in and for example the critical infrastructure operators or police forces have higher mandate they can upgrade their system by integrating additional technology blocks.

00:16:32: so this really shows the agnosticity.

00:16:37: And this leads us to the most important question, which is when will Forrest be available for our customers?

00:16:43: Yeah.

00:16:43: So that's a good question.

00:16:44: so yeah actually here at Rotor & Schwartz we have been providing counter drone systems more than ten years through.

00:16:52: the Adrona Suite has spent in the market for more then ten years and now we've gained a lot of experience in this area.

00:16:59: Now the expansion of Adronas to Forrest follows road map with several stages.

00:17:07: So yes, the RF layer is already available now.

00:17:10: Now radars and electro-optical systems can then be ordered from summer onwards to enable really this multi sensor capability that's actually key of Thoris'.

00:17:20: And the complete multi layers system in the tactical vehicle as mentioned including a laser effector Is then expected to be available by the end of twenty twenty eight.

00:17:30: Of course what always important for us is existing customers Can easily upgrade to the multi-sensor, multi-factor system and they will still receive service in maintenance.

00:17:40: So this is an important aspect from a customer perspective that nothing gets lost and there's always a continuation.

00:17:48: Well, thank you for all that and dear listeners as we've heard today the drone threat is reshaping operational environments at an unprecedented pace.

00:17:57: Counter-UAS no longer only a military requirement but it also involves critical infrastructure law enforcement airports.

00:18:08: Future-ready drone defense depends on adaptability, not static systems.

00:18:13: And traditional counter UAS approaches alone are no longer sufficient.

00:18:18: No single sensor can solve the problem alone.

00:18:21: The combination of RF sensing radar EOIR and of course sensor fusion including The whole effector side of it all makes Thoris invaluable for today's counter-UAS operations.

00:18:35: Thoris represents the evolution

00:18:38: from

00:18:38: RF focused, counter drone capabilities towards full spectrum operational protection.

00:18:44: It was designed as we've heard from the beginning As a scalable and sensor & platform agnostic architecture For any type of customer capable of adapting as operational requirements evolve.

00:18:57: Thank you Jens for your insights,

00:18:59: thank you for having me on the show and see you next time!

00:19:02: If you liked this episode please like share reposts and comment basically whatever you'd like to do on social media or other such.

00:19:10: tune back in next time.

00:19:12: we'll continue to deep dive into the exciting technology world of road and schwarz here.

00:19:16: ya later bye.