Closing the capability gap: RF counter-drone warfare in the modern battlespace

00:00:02: Welcome to Signals,

00:00:06: the defense podcast from Rodin Schwartz.

00:00:15: Today's topic is closing the capability gap RF counter drone warfare in The Modern Battlespace.

00:00:24: I'm your host Dennis P. Mecklinghaus and this time sadly our co-host Kadir Aideen Is not able To join us so you'll have to deal only with me myself And i. Today we'll explore one of the most important dimensions... ...of modern battlespace, the electromagnetic spectrum.

00:00:44: Over the last few years drones have transformed modern warfare at a pace few expected From reconnaissance squadcopters to autonomous loitering munitions and coordinated swarms.

00:00:58: uncrewed systems are now everywhere And they're exposing critical gaps in traditional defense system.

00:01:05: Joining us is our RF, Counter-UAS and Electronic Warfare expert from Oden-Schwarz Janif Haran.

00:01:12: Hi everybody!

00:01:13: My name's Janif.

00:01:15: I'm a Reserved Colonel And actually most of my service almost twenty seven years i've been deeply involved in spectrum operations From connectivity to Spectrum Awareness SIGINT EW And of course, counter drones.

00:01:36: So I'm very happy to be here and share some my thoughts about it!

00:01:41: You're actually the expert who talked today's topic Closing the Capability Cap?

00:01:47: I am sure that there are many experts out there... ...I can share some of my thoughts & experience with the Counter Drone business.

00:01:55: Perfect !

00:01:56: Let's jump right in!

00:01:58: To start, drones were once seen as a niche capability.

00:02:04: But today, they're everywhere!

00:02:07: What has changed over the years?

00:02:10: Well that's an interesting question.

00:02:12: I think.

00:02:13: when you go and answer this kind of questions You have to lean back And watch whatever capabilities we can see on the battlefield To really examine what is going in conflicts.

00:02:29: Drones are very similar to ships vessels, aircraft and tanks.

00:02:36: Most of this capability started in a civilian atmosphere.

00:02:42: so drones they are very cheap And They're taking advantage Of the very complicated Atmosphere or the battlefield because when ground forces Are getting into conflicts They are used to look straight.

00:03:03: Exactly!

00:03:05: Aircraft is use to look on the sky, right?

00:03:09: Exactly!

00:03:09: Drones are in between... they're from land and flying very low.

00:03:17: Some of them aren't using RF, some with fiber.

00:03:21: All kinds of drones we have out there.

00:03:23: But if I can return it back to initial question Very cheap.

00:03:30: They could cause a strategic damage.

00:03:34: And they are using this gap that I was talking about land and air.

00:03:40: so there in between, i think This is one of the reasons The drones became what?

00:03:47: One Of the biggest problem over time mm-hmm

00:03:50: and They pose A very difficult threat for conventional military systems.

00:03:55: right

00:03:56: the interesting thing About drones.

00:03:58: again We are talking about the phase that we are now.

00:04:02: But they didn't start it in this way, but to know... They're using all the war domains at the same time.

00:04:12: if you define conflict domain.

00:04:15: We say land air sea space.

00:04:19: so a drone is flying from the land.

00:04:23: he uses very low attitude on the air is communication systems, some of the time are using space.

00:04:34: Yeah.

00:04:36: So it's like a combination all the domains in one small capability Tactical to capability.

00:04:45: so you're right

00:04:46: yeah we.

00:04:47: I mean You've been talking about the low altitude flight profiles?

00:04:51: I mean they do have very small radar cross-section as well.

00:04:55: Their lower speed than aircraft, for example creates radar filtering challenges.

00:05:02: Exactly and one of the challenge that we have is that a drone isn't predictable.

00:05:08: Yes totally

00:05:10: Yeah.

00:05:10: so if you are talking about missiles some most time you can predict by ballistic assumption where the missile will land.

00:05:20: If it's an aircraft, as you said... It is big.

00:05:22: You can detect and follow the drone.

00:05:25: A drone is very small!

00:05:26: And it flies in a complicated flight route which brings us great challenges.

00:05:35: With us at Odo & Schwarz we are obviously talking about the RF spectrum.

00:05:40: so.. We're not talking of seeing a drone and taking it down belistically but we talk about taking a drone down with RF measures.

00:05:51: Like you said, it's very difficult to actually counter a drone as they come in different sizes They're highly agile and have like you said unpredictable behavior.

00:06:05: And then there are the swarms.

00:06:08: I can add on this that before we will dive into all kinds of threats like swarms etc.

00:06:17: We need to define the operational process and the challenges that we have on an operational process regarding drones.

00:06:25: Perfect!

00:06:25: The first phase is detection, the second phase is classification, third alert...the fourth stage is to affect the drone.

00:06:42: so it's like a cycle operation on Cyker That we need to understand the gaps or the challenges that we have in each step.

00:06:52: Perfect.

00:06:53: Let's talk about detection.

00:06:55: Yes

00:06:56: Detection and of course drones, In general We have to go into multi layers thinking It is not only radar it has a combination Of all capabilities.

00:07:16: So, on the detection that's one of the difficult stages.

00:07:21: We have to detect a drone.

00:07:23: we said before they are very challenging for radars but... ...we can't detect drones by radars?

00:07:30: Yeah

00:07:31: RF detection is very accurate.

00:07:34: yeah!

00:07:34: We can detect drones via RF and I think that we need to merge these two detection capabilities to really understand Is there a drone out here?

00:07:47: Which is important, because with tethered drones for example or on the fiber cables.

00:07:52: these cannot be detected by RF.

00:07:55: so this where radar comes in.

00:07:57: Exactly!

00:07:58: And they are many layers that we can use and... Here at Wodern-Žvants we're going to use them.

00:08:07: We will talk about it I'm sure of but.. We think exactly same way of thinking multi-layers solution.

00:08:17: The second part, the second stage is classification.

00:08:22: so in a conflict area there will be a lot of drones.

00:08:27: some of them as we say are blue side drones our own drones.

00:08:32: Some Of Them Will Be Maybe Sevinian Drones and the third Is Our Adversaries Drones.

00:08:41: So the classification part is a very important stage.

00:08:46: To understand, Is it a threat or not?

00:08:48: The third stage as we said... ...is the alert.

00:08:53: Actually that's a stage I'm always implementing in the operation process because this stage comes from my experience on the field.

00:09:05: Perfect!

00:09:07: You detected drone and you are doing the classification phase.

00:09:12: Sometimes it takes time.

00:09:15: The alert phase is to alert your forces that there's a drone out here and we are handling this right now, trying to classify the drone right now... Actually I can tell you these fans saved many lives!

00:09:36: The first stage is the effect stage.

00:09:41: In this stage, you have all kind of capabilities.

00:09:45: Some of them are RF capabilities.

00:09:49: in the RF capabilities we Have all kinds of tools in our toolbox and I'm sure that shortly will be out To our customers with some of these tools.

00:10:03: But they're going to be unique And very efficient.

00:10:09: And of course when you are handling drones, You will sometimes have to use some of semi hard kill.

00:10:18: That means take the drone down.

00:10:21: But this is the operational process and The most important thing that I can say about it?

00:10:39: to implement the new lesson that we learned in the field.

00:10:44: So this is something very important.

00:10:47: Interesting, well as the podcast is called Closing the Capability Gap and The Capability gap Is the phrase That We hear In basically all defense discussions at the moment What IS that capability gap today?

00:11:05: I can divide This capability gap To two parts.

00:11:09: First of all, we're talking about a very low cost threat that you have to use Very expensive countermeasures To be very efficient.

00:11:23: So that's the gap We cannot leave with.

00:11:27: The second gap is that the adaptable gap.

00:11:30: I mean That Some of their defense industries are walking very hard on solving The threat that we deal with yesterday.

00:11:43: Yeah, okay

00:11:45: and We find out over the past few years That conflicts are not short And?

00:11:53: We have so many things to say about long conflict but in our perspective.

00:12:01: The problem with long conflicts is that our adversaries can adapt change and To find what's our weak points.

00:12:10: I saw so many very good solutions, but they are good for the past not for present and not for future.

00:12:20: Exactly!

00:12:21: As you said... The speed of drone innovation today is unprecedented.

00:12:26: It's just that when you develop a counter-drone capability And then next thing You will see Is That They have basically countered your counter drone system.

00:12:38: So How do we keep up as industry?

00:12:41: or how?

00:12:42: Do militaries even keep up?

00:12:45: so first of all You know, it's a problem.

00:12:48: It's a challenge.

00:12:49: It is the challenge when you talk about military.

00:12:53: They cannot change things very easily.

00:12:55: I cannot run away from that but i think if We will build agile systems We can adapt to any challenge.

00:13:09: That means that in a commercial point of view, probably we will have to change our perspective.

00:13:18: We are not selling at product.

00:13:20: Uh-huh?

00:13:21: We're selling... In Wodenszwald's!

00:13:24: ...we are selling relationship.

00:13:27: Uh huh?

00:13:27: We are selling our experts.

00:13:30: We're sellin' out knowledge and we are sellin'... Our Will To Adapt And To Change and to solve whatever challenges that will be out there.

00:13:41: So, I think as you said drones have been changed very quickly.

00:13:48: we started with drones working on two point four gigahertz five point eight and GNSS.

00:13:54: now you see drones with satellite communication cellular communication acoustic capabilities radar capabilities immune antennas.

00:14:03: so A simple jammer will not do the job, and I think that's a real gap.

00:14:10: The gap is to change our way of thinking.

00:14:14: This mornings' Gap?

00:14:16: Is the drone swarms.

00:14:18: So you don't have one or two drones coming at you You'll have...a whole lot of them!

00:14:26: How does THAT change the equation now?

00:14:29: When i look on all kinds shows that you see like civilian shows.

00:14:36: That I see a show of drones doing all kinds of shapes, to see thousands of drones... Everybody is thinking wow!

00:14:47: That's so beautiful.

00:14:49: and i'm thinking about what are we going do on the battlefield?

00:14:55: Because as I said most good technologies were adopted on the battlefield and got even better, then came back to the civilian life.

00:15:06: So I think that when we can really examine this war challenge... ...we will probably need to find a single point of failure for these wars.

00:15:20: And there WILL be a single one because if you can detect it, classify and effect the mother drone of the swarm, we can take the brain out from it.

00:15:40: And this is something that you can do!

00:15:43: You can tell me or whatever expert I will talk to... But still you'll have one hundred explosives on the sky which can hit targets.

00:15:58: The difference between A strategic swarm driven by a mother drone is from tactical hits to strategic hits.

00:16:11: And when there will be conflict, we'll get hit.

00:16:16: The question is Will the drones hit in strategic capabilities or tactical ones?

00:16:24: That's something that needs our innovation and all engineers think of to detect and take out the mother drawn, the mothership.

00:16:37: Exactly!

00:16:37: So effect is basically one of key words here And as you've already said there's... There is a growing discussion around kinetic and non-kinetic solutions.

00:16:49: Why are RF based approaches becoming more attractive?

00:16:53: Most of the theatre that we're talking about.

00:16:56: We aren't talking about battlefields critical infrastructure.

00:17:05: We are talking about lower enforcement and we're not going to use mesize or kinetic approach in this kind of theaters exactly.

00:17:15: I think that on the RF solutions, we can provide ninety percent defense very low costs without collateral damage.

00:17:31: so I think that our best solution will provide us protection in most cases, not fully.

00:17:40: Not one hundred percent but good protection without collateral damage and this is what we are looking for.

00:17:50: And uh... This might interest you dear listeners at a next week at Hila Bellinershow if you're listening to this beforehand and If You Are Listening To This.

00:17:59: Later We will have launched a brand new counter drone solution called Thoris.

00:18:08: More on that in later episodes where we'll deep dive into the solution itself.

00:18:15: Now, back to our discussion... ...we were talking about kinetic and non-kinetic responses but also talking about the RF spectrum.

00:18:26: To dominate the spectrum you need

00:18:30: RF.

00:18:31: People think that when we are talking to do effect with RF, We're talking about jamming.

00:18:37: Yeah

00:18:38: Jamming is not the case.

00:18:41: Exactly

00:18:41: As you said were talking about controlling.

00:18:44: dominate the spectrum environment.

00:18:48: That means as I said before can use many techniques on the RF On the effect side To make sure that we take out threats.

00:19:00: jamming is not only noise and power.

00:19:03: Jamming, it's to do whatever we need to do... ...to take this drone

00:19:07: down.".

00:19:08: So basically you're not just turning on the noise or like turning something on because You have to think ahead!

00:19:16: And you have to THINK OF THE CYCLE!

00:19:19: You have TO DETECT!

00:19:20: You HAVE TO CLASSIFY!

00:19:21: YOU HAVE TO EFFECT!

00:19:23: And if we will go even one more layer down of the detection there IS a drone detection and there is the RF detection.

00:19:35: The RF detection means that most of the drones are working in very wide band frequencies, they can do on low-band, operate on cellular bands, satellite bands, Wi-Fi etc... And this means if you have good RF detection capabilities You can track these drones whenever or wherever he hops in the frequency band and to make sure that you can efficiently affect this drone.

00:20:04: So, that's a really important layer of detection.

00:20:09: Perfect!

00:20:10: In past these solutions were operating independently but today integration is key word.

00:20:20: Integration against.

00:20:22: when we are talking about very complicated threat you have to bring a complicated solution.

00:20:28: It won't work with a simple solution, so as you said... To integrate RF capabilities for detection and effect.

00:20:40: read our capabilities all kinds of other capabilities into one centralized operational center or whatever we need in whatever theater your walking.

00:20:54: And you know, there is a phrase that I want to put in.

00:20:57: That I really liked...I heard it the military before.

00:21:00: when we are thinking about counter drones We have to change our perspective from sensor and effectors To target prospective mm-hmm?

00:21:12: i don't care About the sensor or the factor whenever wherever There's a threat Or Whenever there Is A threat coming up.

00:21:23: I'm looking only at the target.

00:21:25: And now, every capabilities that they have there needs to be integrated into my operational need so i can use them whenever and wherever... ...and however i want to use it.

00:21:40: So a target perspective when we are talking about drones Target Perspective!

00:21:45: And this not only in the operational theater but also for example critical infrastructure.

00:21:52: Of course, a target perspective is an approach that we need to go with when we are handling drones.

00:22:00: That's the only way... Let's talk about an airport.

00:22:03: by law The Airport needs to shut down their port activity for depends on the law depend on the country.

00:22:12: but several several hours

00:22:15: Oh yeah

00:22:15: This is costly.

00:22:17: Yeah very costly and lot of money.

00:22:19: so Probably if a drone is detected on an airport, probably nobody will shoot a missile.

00:22:26: On this drone?

00:22:27: Of course!

00:22:28: Yeah exactly.

00:22:28: So you have to do it as we said in a centralized operational room.

00:22:35: You understand the theater your walking at and you can affect or counter this drone with A very efficient way.

00:22:45: Do it in an efficient way And make sure that you are not making collateral damage to the environment.

00:22:53: So I fully agree about it.

00:22:55: Perfect, yeah and this is basically where Thoris comes in.

00:23:01: but for that dear listener you will have to listen to The next few episodes while we will deep dive into the capability.

00:23:10: so looking ahead And knowing that Thoris' coming Where's all these going?

00:23:16: Do You see The capability gap might grow into.

00:23:21: What we are doing in Rode and Schwarz is really closing the gap, as I said after many years of military and drones were only one thing that was deeply involved.

00:23:36: but drones and swarms reflect war over five years ahead.

00:23:43: what will happen next?

00:23:45: Will it be robotics?

00:23:49: Will it be all kind of autonomous systems?

00:23:52: And actually what we are providing is an holistic solution.

00:23:58: Because if the next challenge would not be drawn anymore, our system can adapt and bring another solutions.

00:24:04: So I think that were really narrowing down a gap... ...and thinking ahead.

00:24:11: It's worth listening and visiting our capability when Show it off.

00:24:18: I can suggest everybody that Everybody that loves to deal with drones To go and see Drones are a big deal And you have two get as much experience As you can, and you have to be adaptive is and as i said It's not selling a product its selling relationship in our knowledge and to bring solution to the theater.

00:24:50: So, I love drones!

00:24:54: In this episode you heard about closing the capability gap.

00:24:58: You learned how to deal with a drone threat that is detect classify alert and affect.

00:25:06: Thank-you for listening.

00:25:07: thank-you Yaniv For being our guest today.

00:25:11: Thank-You

00:25:13: And visit us at ELA or EuroSaturi in next two weeks to learn all about our Thoris Counter-US system.

00:25:24: And if, like I said before... If you were listening at a later date visit out web pages to get the knowledge that you need.

00:25:34: Here ya later!