Navigating the Depths: Submarine Communications Unveiled

00:00:02: Welcome

00:00:02: to Signals,

00:00:06: the defense

00:00:06: podcast from Rodin

00:00:08: Schwartz.

00:00:17: Welcome to signals of The Rodin Schwarz Defense Podcast with a topic that's silent service and visible yet connected modern submarine communications.

00:00:27: I'm your host at Dennis P. Merklinghaus sitting here with my co-host Kadir Aydin.

00:00:33: Hi

00:00:34: And today we're diving deep literally into the world of submarine communications.

00:00:39: A unique environment with unique challenges, it's a world of extreme isolation critical decision-making and constant tension between staying silent and needing to connect.

00:00:50: joining us is Douglas Bates from Roder & Schwarz.

00:00:55: Hi everyone!

00:00:56: Yep I'm Dougie Bates, formally Douglas if its a Sunday.

00:01:01: I am from Roondon Swartz here in the UK ,I am the commissioning manager for Type XXVI so i am responsible set to work of our communication system on board the Type-twenty six frigates in Glasgow.

00:01:13: And I'm on this podcast today.

00:01:15: as an a previous life, i was a submariner so member of the UK Royal Navy's submarine service serving on vanguard class submarines.

00:01:28: perfect.

00:01:29: well to start Let's set the scene under the waves.

00:01:32: We all know one of the classics, One Of The Movies such as The Sport or The Hunt for Red October.

00:01:38: weeks a month submerged one hundred people in a confined space isolated.

00:01:43: modern life is All About Being Constantly Connected.

00:01:45: How Does That Contrast With Reality Of Submarine Life Douglas?

00:01:51: Yeah and I think that was really good question because Modern Life Is A Hundred Percent Being Connected At All Times Whereas The submarine is the exact opposite, but you're super isolated from the outside world.

00:02:05: And to be honest it acts as a bit of a double-edged sword.

00:02:09: where we have the pad sides... You know?

00:02:10: ...you've got that impact mentally on the crew and the impact of that isolation From loved ones family friends and even just Even.

00:02:20: just like we say That access to information with what's going on in the world can all have an effect!

00:02:25: the crew up their game, you'll find in a lot of platforms which have a lot-of time shoreside or with access to support.

00:02:38: They become overreliant on that support perhaps... Or they know it can get answers at end of phone call whereas for The Submariner is very much opposite.

00:02:48: You have no one to fall back On!

00:02:49: You must rely on your skills and trust in the skills of your crewmates around about ya.

00:02:58: So this really does start to build the strength of the crew.

00:03:04: And when a summoner is talking to a summon, you know what level they are at and that's be it chef or steward who ever working in the galley to the engineers on the nuclear reactor Or people like myself who worked on communications equipment.

00:03:21: We all had a base-level knowledge about the submarine itself a really important part of that life.

00:03:29: Wow, so it was basically super focused on one thing and that thing only until you submerged or actually hit harbour again?

00:03:39: Yeah exactly!

00:03:41: And is that sort of vigilance in the focus throughout the crew... That's quite hard to maintain.

00:03:48: It all falls back to the double-edged sword which falls back through morale and psychological impact.

00:03:55: When I talk about this isolation, just to give it some perspective.

00:03:59: For family members for example... ...I was married towards the end of my life as a Samaritan and once-a-week.. ..my wife could write me one hundred twenty words So less than a tweet she can write to me And i couldn't reply.

00:04:13: so that's very much a one way communication depending on the communications how good they were How Good The Maintainer Was Which Is Me.

00:04:22: So I tried To Be Very Good.

00:04:24: Yeah, depending if you actually get even that message or not because there can be times when There's mistakes your side.

00:04:31: Or heaven forbid something Bad happens to one of your family.

00:04:36: then the communications are just cut off and all of a sudden You don't even get their hundred twenty words.

00:04:41: so they're kind of a real impact on crew morale.

00:04:44: yeah it becomes a lot more about Building ways to keep people focused and keeping them on top of the task at hand.

00:04:52: But I think that's really helped by, like you say the level of professionalism we end up with as a Savannah.

00:04:58: Wow!

00:04:58: And... As-as you said uh what going away from from personal side.

00:05:04: every submarineer has their knowledge off the boat as well.

00:05:07: on top of there they're skill set.

00:05:10: so how does that affect it?

00:05:12: The understanding of the boat if you know what i mean?

00:05:15: Oh yeah absolutely Yeah.

00:05:17: About that trust level With any of your crewmates As like I was saying earlier from chefs, stewards they would all know how to react to a fire.

00:05:26: Know how to act to hydraulic burst knowing which valves to close off you effectively have to earn what we call our dolphins or samarino dolphins.

00:05:36: the dolphin as you wear on your uniform it's little gold badge of two dolphins in the crown and It shows that you've passed your Samarino training.

00:05:43: You know How To Reactive Emergency On The Summary And you've established yourself watch keeping position, whatever that is.

00:05:50: it may be part of the firefighting team.

00:05:52: It maybe The Helmsman like driving in this submarine but it shows you have got a base level skill to being an effective team member on one board the boat.

00:06:04: So isolation stealth makes communication on board a submarine fundamentally different because You don't want to pop up on frequencies basically.

00:06:13: so what exactly?

00:06:15: set it apart from surface ships communications, aircraft communication and so on?

00:06:20: That's again a really good question.

00:06:21: Sorry to get split depending upon the type of submarine you were on.

00:06:25: The submarines I was on basically they're nuclear bombers.

00:06:29: Those submarines...the communication is very much received.

00:06:33: only You don't want to give away your position at any cost.

00:06:39: So it's all about intelligence gathering and the support submarines, like the Fleetboats as they're called.

00:06:43: That would be your A-class submarines in the UK.

00:06:47: They go around on their gala that information... ...they will transmit to you Your airplanes transmitting to you And certainly their planes and surface ships are acting a more conventional approach to communications.

00:06:59: But for ourselves and for the fleet boats at large extent because there are information gallerers.. ..they have to be sneaky For want of better word.

00:07:08: It's very much about prioritizing when you communicate and how to communicate.

00:07:13: So, how exactly does it work?

00:07:14: Like do you receive underwater or need to get up on the surface?

00:07:20: is both possible... How can we transmit if needed?

00:07:23: Maybe give us some insights in operations.

00:07:26: Exactly!

00:07:28: And maybe explain to listeners that the physics of underwater communication completely different then I mean it's almost impossible to communicate underwater.

00:07:39: Absolutely, yeah.

00:07:41: so again for a boat that is on patrol So one of the nuclear boats like I was on Like i said its receive only and its received because you don't want to be giving away your position now You can give away your positions in two ways by transmitting which is something That would need to go up to either periscope depth or onto surface.

00:08:03: Well actually that is it, the periscope depth on the surface.

00:08:05: That's your two ways.

00:08:06: but receiving... The receive path because you're beneath water and you want to stay under water.

00:08:12: It all about effective use of boys So effectively receivers that you can trail behind a submarine Be at the boys or the buoyant wire area which drags behind the submarine For transmitting in boats its very much using masts.

00:08:29: So the mass would need to always be above the waterline, to be able effectively transmit.

00:08:34: And that is how you start giving yourself away and give your position away.

00:08:38: Exactly!

00:08:38: I was gonna say with a boy's... You're giving way your position aren't you?

00:08:44: No actually no.. The boys don't get me wrong sorry.... Your risking your position more than being just a submarine under the water but they are visibility on this surface as minimal.

00:08:57: The wire, for example is just simply that.

00:08:58: It's a wire.

00:08:59: you trail in the surface and it's extremely hard to spot especially on an ocean this size of the Atlantic.

00:09:04: And the boys that can receive one.

00:09:07: they go just beneath the surface of water.

00:09:09: So that kind ties more into your question about the difference between our combs and surface ships.

00:09:16: Whereas we get away with receiving Just below the waterline But transmitting You need to go above the water And that's where it becomes difficult.

00:09:25: Good, so I would like to dive a little bit deeper into the operational perspective of a submarine because its just personal interest basically.

00:09:32: So i know you've said that its permanent reception and you transmit as less is possible Because of isolation.

00:09:39: It must be stealth but from time-to-time it can happen.

00:09:43: You also lose the reception or communication Or something which never happens.

00:09:50: No, it's quite common.

00:09:52: I think is the nature of The Beast.

00:09:54: you're on a submarine that's out in the middle Of the ocean and there are many things That can affect your ability to receive communications.

00:10:01: Sometimes It could be something as simple As the direction of Your course means... Your area was getting dragged away Which isn't good for reception.

00:10:10: but it Can also say For example You've been gone In a submarine And you have not noticed A vessel On the surface somehow and your point wire aerial gets chopped off, then you need to replace that extremely quickly.

00:10:24: And actually... That is an extremely tough operation because a submarine has really confined space.

00:10:32: You carry a number of spare point-wire aerials but they are at significant length.

00:10:38: I'm talking like a thousand metres-ish sort of length that you're dragging behind you.

00:10:47: So as you can imagine replacing one of them And the spaces that you have to work with can actually be quite a tough job.

00:10:53: But it's a job where we get through very quickly because, You need that communication or reception from ShowSight.

00:11:02: So this is constantly like I said It something which needs constant when going into depth Is still something that should need?

00:11:11: Yeah absolutely Only some reasons.

00:11:14: its constant in communications.

00:11:15: It's for priority messaging based around what we carry on those submarines.

00:11:20: Obviously, I won't go into too much detail but you need that constant communication so the shore command can give you instantly a notification if you need to use any of that material.

00:11:30: So when your at depth don't get me wrong it is not something you would do only some range.

00:11:35: You wouldn't go extremely deep in these summaries while patrolling because you have one mission and keep yourself at a depth where reception as possible.

00:11:44: that's actually relatively deep, so you can go more than deep enough to not be detected but still have reception from this area.

00:11:53: Okay let's talk about devices and frequencies or techniques.

00:11:58: So what is it exactly?

00:12:00: What are we using in order to communicate?

00:12:01: Is it satellite?

00:12:02: Is radio frequencies?

00:12:05: Anything else?

00:12:05: Is there

00:12:06: a laser?

00:12:07: On the submarine that runs on patrol It has entirely VRF, very old school.

00:12:12: So you're getting your messages over VLF from the submarine.

00:12:17: When, when you go into the surface if you are not on patrol and communicating as shall we say normal or not in a patrol routine then effectively all of the communications that you would expect.

00:12:30: so throughout frequency ranges you can transmit on your HF You have your satellite radio...you have everything you'd expect form a ship

00:12:42: Except enough differentiation would

00:12:44: be

00:12:46: above service and below surface

00:12:48: Absolutely.

00:12:49: Yes, I know that is.

00:12:50: it's a big difference there.

00:12:53: When you put your buff surface in when you're actually able to transmit we are able To make your location known.

00:13:00: And when you've been stealthy under the surface?

00:13:03: Yeah It changes they entire tactical picture.

00:13:06: What does it about?

00:13:07: when we look into this up mind itself?

00:13:09: so how does community cave inside a car submarine work?

00:13:13: because on the surface ship, for instance it's big.

00:13:15: You have hundreds of meters.

00:13:17: you have multiple decks so you don't talk to each other like face-to-face but also use technology there.

00:13:24: So how is real life in a submarine?

00:13:26: Yeah well its very much same.

00:13:29: The main thing with this submarine is remaining quiet.

00:13:34: That's very effective, because crew noise is the big thing that gives away your position.

00:13:39: So if you can minimize movement and have remote conversations... ...that's what we should do!

00:13:44: And that's where we use it.

00:13:44: but one of these submarines are very rudimentary equipment.

00:13:52: Telephones going through telephone exchanges, headsets going through commerce exchanges which were all old-school equipment that I find very interesting.

00:14:05: working here at Rodin Swartz and the advancements.

00:14:08: That we're seeing in the comms, We can give to navies around the world?

00:14:15: i think it's something The summer marine environment would benefit from hugely because there is absolutely a need To have your remote communication with each other.

00:14:25: Okay.

00:14:25: so In short Technology can support reducing crew noise.

00:14:30: What exactly does Rodin Schwartz have in its portfolio, In order to support that aspect?

00:14:36: I think we've a great number of things To be honest on our portfolio... ...I think the communication systems We are implementing currently onto Type-twenty six.

00:14:45: A lot of them could lend themselves really well to The submarine environment and the likes Of your WCS handhelds.

00:14:54: i think That becomes really good for emergency situations when people aren't necessarily at their fixed positions, they're watchkeeping positions.

00:15:03: So that maintains communication lines even on the move.

00:15:06: so it is really useful.

00:15:07: but to actually minimise crew noise It's all about improving what we have in our set position currently I think with likes of our voice terminals for example.

00:15:17: i think the voice terminals we use are exactly where a submarine could benefit from especially if there was increased functionality offered by operators and The way doctor

00:15:28: for those who don't know what WCS stands for its wireless communication systems and it provides basically a functionality of Mobile communications.

00:15:35: It's a mobile version of the voice terminal And comes with the same features, as I understood that could also be more beneficial since it reduces even more the need of crew noise on board.

00:15:49: Yeah, apologies I should have expanded a bit more about what WCS was but yes this mobile voice terminal analogy is exactly right and i think that functionality we can offer from these to crew members who need to move from fixed positions or whom may as part of damage control for example not be able to maintain a fixed position.

00:16:12: I think the functionality that we offer through these WCSs would be invaluable for them.

00:16:16: Okay,

00:16:16: what does this future ask for?

00:16:18: basically when i put it like that?

00:16:20: Like... What is next generation of communication on a submarine which is needed in order to get into the next stage or step?

00:16:28: I think its more broadening with already discussed external comms are important to have durability.

00:16:36: I think with them it's important to be functional, even not being used for a large amount of time and having their transmittance submerged under water you do find that endurance and reliability becomes major factor when talking about communication above the surface.

00:16:55: For actually on board a boat during patrol though they increased functionality offered through through the likes of your voice-downs, you're WCS.

00:17:07: Showing their Royal Navy exactly what they can do with wireless comms on board a submarine which ten or fifteen years ago that wouldn't have even been part of conversation but there very much becoming more and more open to idea now as they are seeing advantages it offers.

00:17:23: so I think alot comes from what we offer now showing how this could be effective in future building on that.

00:17:33: But with submarines and the security around them, it's important to build slowly instead of lead.

00:17:37: Do you think that AI could play a role in that environment?

00:17:41: I think no doubt will but i'd say certainly with the Royal Navy and navies around the world they would be tentative about putting them straight into something like a submarine.

00:17:52: there'll be lots trials at surface level first.

00:17:55: then once their confident what can offer to the surface fleet.

00:17:58: we need start moving onto the world of submarines.

00:18:01: I think my experience with most navies is they're very protective of their submarines and we like to be sure what they are doing before they commit anything.

00:18:10: Okay, fair point.

00:18:11: Well thank you for that!

00:18:12: That was interesting.

00:18:14: What about in your life as a submariner?

00:18:17: Maybe go into it and tell us something happened during the time.

00:18:22: Yes certainly It probably comes up to me mostly because i have got any interest around them.

00:18:28: It is more around the morale piece.

00:18:31: As you can imagine, life could be quite monotonous on a submarine working six hour shifts constantly for months on end.

00:18:39: so alot of it comes round with anticipation to wind up your crewmates.

00:18:45: Something for myself.

00:18:46: One thing we like do with SMQs.

00:18:49: they're called these are Samaran qualifiers So people that are in their first patrol and trying to earn those dolphins I spoke about earlier.

00:18:56: When coming back from patrol, you're nearing the end.

00:18:59: You are going to surface for the first time.

00:19:01: You start building them up that there's a job they can do where they'll get extra money and we call it the clubbers.

00:19:07: so... We tell them that their'e gonna go into the conning tower as soon as we surface adverse weller gear, they're going to go up there and we give them hammers.

00:19:17: And then you have to hit the heads of any sharks that are still in the conning tower because I've got to clear it out and make it safe for officers when they come up.

00:19:25: so they get dressed fully into their clover.

00:19:28: i'm not sure if anyone would ever believe It If They had just been You know In an office situation or working normally.

00:19:35: but after months and months at sea and Months and months of building them Up To it?

00:19:38: They Believe.

00:19:39: More and more start thinking they gonna Get all this money For clubbing a shark with a hammer.

00:19:45: You send them up there and by the time they get, They have a look around.

00:19:49: And before you know it... ...you're up there throwing things at them just to take their mic a little bit.

00:19:54: It's really..it is thing like that I think as a Samarana Is the only way you can sort of get yourself through That.

00:20:00: so i call mental torment Of a patrol with that much time Underwater!

00:20:05: You build-up those little things Like that To make into something Something to anticipate Something to look forward too Yeah?

00:20:12: ..and im sure Those guys we've done this do.

00:20:13: I've done it to many now in the coming years.

00:20:16: Almost a hazing process?

00:20:18: Almost, yeah!

00:20:19: Maybe not quite as mean as hazing but... Yeah that'll mean.

00:20:22: Well

00:20:22: thanks Tagi for these insights and thank you dear listener for listening.

00:20:27: As we heard today We have gone into the world of submarines.. ..we have gone underwater so-to say Still being connected with the surface world.

00:20:37: So its'nt all silent down there like was said at the beginning.

00:20:41: Thank You Dear Listener For Listening.

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00:20:47: And if you want a comment... comment here later!

00:20:50: Bye Thank You bye.