The importance of SATURN for NATO strategic defense

00:00:02: Welcome to Signals.

00:00:06: The Defense Podcast from Roder

00:00:07: & Schwartz.

00:00:13: Welcome to Signals, the Roder & Schwartz Defense Podcast.

00:00:17: I'm your host, Dennis P. Merklinghaus, sitting here with my co-host, Kadeela Eidink.

00:00:21: Hi, everyone.

00:00:22: And our guest today is Thomas Böge, Senior Director of Technology and Platform Strategy.

00:00:29: Hi, everyone.

00:00:30: Thank you for the invitation.

00:00:32: Our topic today is the importance of Saturn for NATO's strategic defense.

00:00:39: So let's start with the basics.

00:00:41: What exactly is Saturn and what does it mean?

00:00:46: Saturn is a, we call it communication waveform, but I think we should first check what the Saturn abbreviation just means.

00:00:53: Oh yeah, that would be a good idea.

00:00:54: It means second generation, anti-Chem, tactical, UHF, radio for NATO.

00:01:01: It explains already a lot what it is.

00:01:02: It's an anti-gem capable waveform, tactical communication, and it's in NATO environment for NATO users.

00:01:09: This

00:01:09: is everything.

00:01:10: Okay.

00:01:11: Thank you, dear listener, for listening.

00:01:14: Maybe I have a question.

00:01:15: So what does anti-gem or how does Saturn make anti-gem possible?

00:01:20: Okay, anti-champ just means you have a kind of technology which is able to still work when the electromagnetic spectrum is interfered by an intentional jammer.

00:01:30: And the mechanism Saturn is using is just fast frequency hopping.

00:01:35: So Saturn is in the UHF frequency band, two hundred twenty-five to four hundred megahertz.

00:01:40: It's the classical UHF interoperability band, and it's just using frequency hopping fast and robust.

00:01:47: That's it, quite simple.

00:01:49: Okay, and is everyone in the military market using the Saturn?

00:01:54: In NATO, yes, it depends on what is already installed on platforms, but there is a strategic policy in NATO to equip in the near future all strategic platforms with Saturn because Saturn is the successor of the so-called half-quick waveform which will go out of service.

00:02:13: It's quite simple and we are currently in a phase that so many platforms which still do not have Saturn will be equipped the next three years.

00:02:23: In our last episode we had Maximus Gasteel talking about the topic of AFKAS and I was thinking whether Saturn and AFKAS are somehow linked to each other.

00:02:33: So on platform level yes, because let's say a ship or fighter is a multi-link platform incorporating different communication media.

00:02:43: So Fcast will add not only the directional data link as explained by Maxime, it will also add a so-called communication subsystem which will use a router suite to combine different communication media to a communication subsystem.

00:02:58: And Saturn and some other links like link-sixteen or SATCOM are part of that multi-link system.

00:03:05: So, Saturn will appear in FCRAS fighters with a next generation data capability called CEDAR, Saturn and Statorate, and it will appear in FCRAS platforms.

00:03:16: Yes.

00:03:17: Okay, what exactly is better or CDR?

00:03:20: SEDR stands for Saturn and hence data rate.

00:03:23: The name says already it's providing a data throughput capability, which is beyond the classical, sixteen kilobit per second old fashioned data throughput, including a self-forming network capability, a maled capability on top.

00:03:40: Okay, so my net means that we are also able to have more than point-to-point communication.

00:03:45: exactly can talk in networks.

00:03:47: Maybe you can explore that a little bit more.

00:03:49: So the network is especially designed for fighter groups, which are normally not so many in number some ten and they are designed for.

00:04:00: Fast reaction times because fighter aircrafts are fast.

00:04:03: so the manned capability must be able to form networks fast.

00:04:07: Network net merge net split on all these things with a kind of moderate data throughput roughly in the order of one hundred and fifty kilo bit per second.

00:04:16: could one of these participants also be an uncrewed vehicle?

00:04:21: Yes, it can but we must be aware that the Saturn wave from normal is an end-to-end pilot communication media.

00:04:28: So an unmanned platform plays a role acting as a relay station, which is also currently the case.

00:04:35: It can be a balloon or an unmanned vehicle just acting as a relay station, but not as a participating node in the SATA network as such.

00:04:43: Okay.

00:04:43: So that means as a relay station to extend the distance you can reach.

00:04:47: And what's the usual limitation in terms of distance for using Saturn?

00:04:53: There's a classical value for any line of sight.

00:04:58: communication media, it's two hundred nautical miles line of sight.

00:05:02: It's for F cars, it's for Saturn, it's for half quick, it's for fixed frequency.

00:05:07: All military communication media installed on a fighter must be able to start with a range of at least two hundred nautical miles because this is the distance where the pilots are starting to build a formation when they have been departed from different platforms from different airports in a wider area, meeting in a mission area.

00:05:30: Okay, we've been quite quick with all the topics we were discussing.

00:05:32: Maybe we just go one step back and you explain what exactly the differences between Halfquake and Saturn and why it's necessary to go to the next generation of anti-GEM waveforms.

00:05:45: I would see three differences, which are essential for the users.

00:05:49: Halfquake is a pure analog Waveform, it's doing frequency hopping as well, but with a very limited capability based on the analog technology.

00:05:58: So Sarton is a digital frequency hopper with digital synchronization and some digital interfaces which are essential for modern networking.

00:06:08: Then the jamming robustness of Sarton is significantly better than Halfquik.

00:06:13: We have to take into account that Halfquik is in service for at least forty years.

00:06:17: So Sarton is prepared for currently Consisted spectrum environment.

00:06:23: And third, Saturn is currently already starting to evolve its potential with the next step of a self-firming network capability, which is what finally the users need, a full digital waveform with magnet capability and with a high state of the art jamming robustness.

00:06:47: Okay.

00:06:48: So and when is the NATO going to implement Saturn entirely?

00:06:53: So we have to separate between implementation and switch it on officially.

00:06:57: So the implementation is done for twenty years already through different steps and for more than ten years at least thousands of platforms are already equipped with Saturn but all are using Saturn on a more or less mission.

00:07:15: basis or training basis.

00:07:16: So there is no general switch where NATO said everybody must use Saturn.

00:07:22: This is a bit depending on the individual time schedule of some key platform, some key ships or some key fighter aircrafts.

00:07:31: So Saturn will be in service at least next five to ten years, but not on a specific date which was planned some years ago, but it will come in step by step mission by mission.

00:07:42: Okay, I remember from my previous position at Naval Communication Systems as sales manager that the NATO was planning to implement or introduce a new edition of Saturn and there was also already talks about a specific date when to turn it on.

00:07:58: So is that still applicable or do we also provide this new editions of Saturn?

00:08:03: Yeah, thanks for the question because we have a lot of confusion out there.

00:08:08: by our customers and the users about the editions.

00:08:11: So almost all radios out are based on the so-called edition three.

00:08:17: And the difference between edition three and the currently heavily discussed edition four is more or less just a formal thing.

00:08:23: Just you can imagine you take a printout of edition three document and what we have done, we have declared as few Optional functions being mandatory, because they are already implemented, they are already out, and they are important for interoperability.

00:08:38: So we just declared five options being now mandatory.

00:08:42: And this already makes an addition three to an addition four.

00:08:46: That means no change in the thousands of field radius so far.

00:08:50: And now on the addition four, we put some additional options in, like Cedar, which is an option.

00:08:56: It still remains edition four, which means as long as you are not changing any mandatory features, it remains edition four.

00:09:04: So all the users are on a safe side, all radios are out, are fine, can be switched on with all the requirements currently mandated by NATO.

00:09:13: But we are already working on what's coming beyond.

00:09:17: So we are talking, for instance, a new transit algorithm, which will make the transit robustness even better.

00:09:23: But this is a mandatory feature, so we are talking already about edition five, but that's it for the moment.

00:09:29: Okay, so maybe you can shortly explain what transeq stands for.

00:09:33: That was an abbreviation.

00:09:34: Good question.

00:09:35: Transeq is an abbreviation and stands for transmission security, which is just a means to have the air pass extremely robust, to be robust against intention in jamas.

00:09:49: And another question is, can we consider ourselves as Rodin Schwartz?

00:09:52: as experts in Saturn.

00:09:55: Yes, definitely.

00:09:56: Definitely because we are part not only of the working groups in NATO where the Saturn waveform is, let me say, managed.

00:10:05: We are also part of the development teams bringing Saturn forward down to the deepest details.

00:10:11: So for instance, we are the head of the transit Tiger team in NATO.

00:10:17: We are the head of the CEDAR Tiger team.

00:10:22: My nickname in NATO, by the way, is Air Ground Air Syndicate Lead.

00:10:26: I'm managing the evolution of Saturn and I myself am part of the development team.

00:10:31: So we are more than firsthand close to Saturn.

00:10:35: Okay,

00:10:35: perfect.

00:10:36: So that means also that our devices, which we offer in this particular circumstances or for this particular field, are well equipped.

00:10:46: They can be integrated in different platforms.

00:10:48: They can be integrated with different modes and modules maybe.

00:10:54: I'm thinking of data communication like data link systems.

00:10:58: And as far as I know, we have already some certifications which also prove the level of quality of Roland Schwarz equipment.

00:11:08: Maybe you can bring some information about that as well.

00:11:11: Yes, you're absolutely right.

00:11:12: So all our satan-capable equipment, which are airborne radios and stationary radios, have certificates from different organizations.

00:11:20: And these certificates are first confirming that we are interoperable through the various interfaces, which could be the air interface.

00:11:28: So it means two different platforms can interact over the air, including the wired interfaces, where, for instance, external modems are connected.

00:11:36: One user for external modem is a tactical data link like link-twenty-two, which can operate fixed frequency with a classical UHF radio or can use SATON, which is a special mode in the SATON standard called UHF EPM.

00:11:51: And we have certificates.

00:11:53: And beyond that, we have also test reports of many national and international test campaigns, LNC, all over the world.

00:12:02: Okay.

00:12:04: Now.

00:12:06: One thing remains, how does Saturn enable users to achieve true spectrum dominance?

00:12:13: It's quite simple.

00:12:16: The transit mechanism is so strong that almost nobody can stop you from communicating.

00:12:23: So you get connected when you have to and want to.

00:12:27: Nice, thank you.

00:12:28: Perfect.

00:12:29: In one of my classic questions, AI is the topic number one lately.

00:12:35: Does AI play any role in Saturn?

00:12:39: Not inside Saturn because we have to take into account that AI needs data and military communication media is normally not storing data.

00:12:49: These are classified data.

00:12:50: They are just transparently passing the radio communication equipment and then it's gone.

00:12:56: But what we are working is to support any kind of communication media.

00:13:01: Not only Saturn, it could also be F-Cas from outside.

00:13:05: with a pre-knowledge about the spectrum usage and how much the spectrum is interfered to make a change from a static offset to a dynamic offset.

00:13:17: We call it dynamic spectrum management.

00:13:19: And here AI will play a good role, I would say, as a supporter from outside, but not inside Saturn.

00:13:26: Okay, interesting.

00:13:28: So the life of the operator will be much easier in the future.

00:13:32: Yes, that's great.

00:13:33: That's a great message to all the soldiers out there.

00:13:40: And I know we have some jet lovers in our audience and that's why I want to ask this question.

00:13:46: Is there a limitation of speed when it comes to operation with Saturn?

00:13:50: Not really.

00:13:51: There is a theoretical limit in speed, but this is far beyond the capabilities of fighter aircrafts, which are the preferred platform for Saturn, even if two supersonic fighters are going Mach two and in opposite direction, Saturn will not be affected at all.

00:14:09: Okay, perfect.

00:14:10: Wow,

00:14:10: interesting.

00:14:11: Great.

00:14:12: Well, coming to an end, Thomas, is there anything you'd like to add?

00:14:16: Yeah, I think there's a very important topic.

00:14:20: our users and we must be aware.

00:14:22: We are enhancing the capability of systems which are currently fielded.

00:14:28: They are partly in operation emissions active and whenever we are thinking about some new capabilities like a new transit algorithm etc.

00:14:38: we must also define a kind of fielding strategy how these new technologies can be rolled out and installed in thousands of already active platforms.

00:14:49: without losing the currently already available interoperability.

00:14:54: This is a big issue.

00:14:56: And here, my message for the users out there, contact us as Rode and Schwarz.

00:15:03: We can assist you and can give you a guidance how you can achieve interoperability while your platforms are undergoing an upgrade with a new Saturn capability for the next generation or the next editions.

00:15:16: Excellent.

00:15:16: Perfect.

00:15:17: Well, dear listener, What we heard today is why Saturn is key for secure military communications.

00:15:25: We heard about NATO's strategic defense in modern warfare.

00:15:30: And we heard about how Rodin Schwartz is part of Saturn working groups in NATO and part of the research and development of the future of Saturn.

00:15:41: If you want to know more about this topic, read our expert paper about Saturn.

00:15:46: and watch our on-demand webinar on our web page.

00:15:50: Thank you, Thomas, for being here.

00:15:51: Thank you for all your insights.

00:15:53: Thank you very much for the invitation.

00:15:54: It was a real pleasure.

00:15:56: Well, dear listeners, thank you for joining us on Signals, the Roto & Schwarz Defense podcast.

00:16:01: If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate and review our podcast and follow us on our social media channels.

00:16:08: Until next time, that's all, folks.

00:16:12: Thank you.

00:16:13: See you later.