Shaping the future of air power in networked operations: FCAS/FCMS

00:00:02: Welcome to Signals,

00:00:06: the Defense Podcast from Roder &

00:00:08: Schwartz.

00:00:13: Welcome to Signals, the Roder & Schwartz Defense Podcast.

00:00:17: With today's topic, shaping the future of air power and network operations, FKAS FCMS.

00:00:23: I'm your host, Dennis P. Maglinghaus, sitting here with my co-host, Kadeer Aydin.

00:00:28: Hi, I'm a senior capture manager from the Technology Systems Division of Roder & Schwartz.

00:00:33: Joining us today is Maxim Zanini, project management FKAS at Rodon-Schwarz.

00:00:38: Hello.

00:00:39: Thank you for inviting me today.

00:00:41: Today we'll be discussing the future air combat system and the challenges it faces of networking the individual components to provide an overall system of crude and uncrewed platform.

00:00:53: So FKAS is a key instrument in the European defense industry.

00:00:55: And I know that we are often hearing the term combat cloud.

00:01:00: So what is it about?

00:01:02: Yeah, Combat Cloud is the missing link which will interconnect the legacy and the future platform that we are currently developing internationally or nationally to develop the future combat air system.

00:01:15: I know it's quite difficult to understand in the first line.

00:01:19: You have to consider F-CAS as a system of systems.

00:01:23: And it's not only next generation fighter, it is focused on interconnecting existing and future platforms.

00:01:31: in order to ensure an extensive information exchange between those platforms.

00:01:36: And in order to do so, you have on one side existing platform that we know today.

00:01:41: You have the F-Rounder M, you have the Eurofighter, the Euro drone, and you have some new platforms being currently developed.

00:01:50: You have a fighter, sixth generation, you have some new kind of remote carrier, heavy, middle, light, and you need a central note in the middle that will interconnect all these platforms together.

00:02:04: So they can basically talk to each other, share data,

00:02:08: share data and also ensure a successful mission execution.

00:02:14: It's not only about talking with each other, it's about successfully execute a mission, plan a mission, reconfigure a mission and execute in the air of the mission.

00:02:25: And as I understand it, you have these uncrewed platforms that could fly ahead and could loiter, could do the recce, and then send data back for the crewed platforms, thereby also...

00:02:38: Basically saving lives.

00:02:39: Yeah.

00:02:40: I mean, it's a bit boring from sort of top gun who he fan that in the future the the most of the job will be done by remote carriers.

00:02:49: Yeah, that's they will be at the front and they will be at the front and will execute model most of the risky part of the mission jamming interception also turning activities.

00:03:01: They are at the front But they need to be connected and they need to exchange between each other and report the mission or sensor information back to the pilot because it still has to decide.

00:03:15: You cannot do anything, everything, remote carriers or unmanned.

00:03:20: You need a man in the middle, of course, to interact, to decide in the end.

00:03:26: The pilot in the middle will sit in the fighter and can coordinate and decide.

00:03:33: Now,

00:03:34: when sending data, when communicating, they will light up in the spectrum.

00:03:38: And I understand that we, as Rodon Schwartz, we have something that doesn't light up in the

00:03:43: spectrum.

00:03:44: Yeah.

00:03:44: This, for

00:03:45: sure,

00:03:45: generates some new technologies, new challenges.

00:03:49: We know there are many challenges that come up due to these new scenarios, these new use cases.

00:03:55: You have a much higher amount of data.

00:03:58: to be a change between those platforms.

00:04:00: It's not only talking on small data, only exchange.

00:04:03: You have to exchange videos.

00:04:06: You have to exchange lots of missions data.

00:04:08: But at the same time, you have the same bigger amount of data.

00:04:13: You have to ensure the same range of information.

00:04:16: And at the same time, you do not need to be intercepted or to be detected.

00:04:20: We always mention internally the concept of low probability of interception, low probability of detection.

00:04:27: And all these requirements together need to be combined, balanced, in order to find a new kind of communication to fulfill all these needs at the same time, but lots of amount of data and not being able to be detected and intercepted.

00:04:45: So we are currently working on new technologies focused on anti-jamming.

00:04:51: solutions, which is already ensured through the law of physics.

00:04:55: If you choose new amount of data, you have to provide some directed links.

00:05:01: It's not like the classical deep hole antenna that we know today.

00:05:06: You have some directed beams directly to the other partner and they ensure channel and they can change information with each other.

00:05:14: So this already naturally ensures a much secure way of transmitting the information together.

00:05:23: And of course, we are developing other ways of securing the transfer information so that it cannot be jumped, that we change the frequency often enough so that we can ensure a mission without that the other party can detect what is being changed.

00:05:42: Before we dive deeper, let's understand how F-CAS is built.

00:05:47: So okay, we were talking about the communication parts of it.

00:05:50: You already named that.

00:05:51: it's also about future or next generation fighter.

00:05:56: So is it the two parts only?

00:05:57: Is this only consisting of the next generation fighter and the communication part, or is there more to it?

00:06:03: I mean, F-CAS is the big picture, the objective we want to achieve.

00:06:08: in the next five, ten years, so to say.

00:06:11: The combination of legacy and future platforms.

00:06:13: All this future part of FKAS is within the shortcut NGWS for next generation weapon system.

00:06:22: This is all where the future is being developed.

00:06:24: And this program within the program, you have NGWS program within FKAS program is focusing on many aspects.

00:06:33: You have the fighter, you have the new... new remote carriers and you have this combat cloud interconnecting all these platforms together.

00:06:42: And of course, only the three aspects alone generates other technologies like communication, like new kind of sensors.

00:06:52: A new engine has to be developed as well.

00:06:54: They are all summed up in pillars or projects that are being developed currently internationally.

00:07:03: Okay.

00:07:04: And so we as Rodent Schwartz are also contributing to it.

00:07:07: and we're contributing to it not as a standalone company, but we are in a consortium.

00:07:12: Exactly.

00:07:12: Yeah.

00:07:13: In fact, Rodent Schwartz is part of F-CAS since the beginning.

00:07:18: We debate a lot internally.

00:07:21: When did F-CAS really started?

00:07:23: Did it start in two thousand seventeen with the French German Difference and Security Council or already in two thousand thirteen with the ETA program or?

00:07:31: Some colleagues say, in nineteen ninety-eight, with the concept of a low-observable fighter, there's a big debate.

00:07:36: But, in fact, we were there since the beginning.

00:07:40: And we were involved in all these steps, as well as in Schwarz.

00:07:44: And we grounded the consortium FCMS in two thousand nineteen, you know, after this three national program really started, together with Hensold, ESG, and DEAL Defense.

00:07:57: so that we can consolidate our strong key technologies in Germany and address this complexity.

00:08:05: It's a complex program.

00:08:07: So we combined our forces in order to address this topic of networking, not only regarding communication, but also regarding sensors and effectors.

00:08:18: Okay, maybe we can have a bigger picture.

00:08:21: Let's have a look into the big picture.

00:08:22: AFKAS is one of the European... programs concerning this topic.

00:08:29: But there is also G-CAP.

00:08:31: So F-CAS is together Spain, France, and Germany.

00:08:34: And we have G-CAP, UK, Italy, and Japan.

00:08:38: So what do I need to, or how do I need to look at these two programs?

00:08:42: Are they competing to each other?

00:08:43: Are they somehow additive to each other?

00:08:47: Can you explain it a little bit

00:08:48: more?

00:08:49: Yeah, G-CAP is a program.

00:08:51: It was called F-CAS back then, because it's been renamed to G-CAP.

00:08:56: has a similar objective to be frank between UK, Italy and Japan currently.

00:09:04: And we need to use this European initiative to develop something in Europe.

00:09:11: And there will be a time when we will talk with each other and say, we decide if we use these two programs in parallel or if we do a merge or if we complement ourselves.

00:09:24: But currently these two programs are running separately.

00:09:28: The US

00:09:29: is already far ahead.

00:09:30: They are talking about working with a sixth-generation fighter.

00:09:34: Doesn't it make sense to go with the US solution rather than develop something on our own?

00:09:39: The main initiative of FCAS was to ensure the European sovereignty.

00:09:46: So if you want to be sovereign, you need to provide your own solution in Europe.

00:09:52: we can still buy some American programs.

00:09:56: I mean, our concept system can include other platforms as well, coming from other countries.

00:10:03: It doesn't mean that everything should come from Europe.

00:10:06: There's a possibility of interconnecting other kind of platforms like the F-Thirty-Five, for example, in Germany.

00:10:13: But the back then, the main initiative, the main motivation was European serenity.

00:10:19: But in the end, they will have to fly together.

00:10:22: We had European nations already fly the American platform.

00:10:27: What is the timeline on all this?

00:10:30: There's always this big date, two thousand and forty for the IOC, initial operating capability.

00:10:37: It doesn't mean that we have to be finished in two thousand and forty.

00:10:40: Two thousand and forty.

00:10:42: Everything is certified.

00:10:43: The army is trained and we can already fulfill the first mission.

00:10:49: So you need to schedule backwards, starting from two thousand forty, when do we need the road on Schwartz to be finished?

00:10:58: And it gives us a rough idea that two thousand forty is not for us.

00:11:03: We need to be finished many years before.

00:11:05: I'm mentioning us as World on Schwartz.

00:11:07: What are we developing for it?

00:11:09: Most of our developments are.

00:11:12: based on the understanding of the market needs currently that we are gathering through the FCAS program.

00:11:18: We talk a lot with German customers, platform integrators as well, and also to the new needs coming from the market.

00:11:26: And based on this, we identified three major technological trends where we are currently providing a development that will fit to these trends.

00:11:37: These trends are currently some summary, of course.

00:11:42: It's a new generation of data link to be able to provide this higher amount of data, as I mentioned before, without being detected.

00:11:51: The second big trend is the multi-link capability.

00:11:56: You will have on such platforms not only a data link, you will have satellite communication, you will have UHF.

00:12:03: for the legacy communications.

00:12:05: Because as I said, F-Cas is not only futurism, also legacy.

00:12:09: So you need to ensure they be interoperable with legacy platforms.

00:12:14: So you need to combine all these things.

00:12:15: And the pilot has other worries just to switch manually from one communication to the other.

00:12:21: It has to have some logic in it in order to route correctly the information based on which link is currently available or which frequency is currently occupied, et cetera.

00:12:33: And the third big technological trend is that the world back then was easy.

00:12:39: We had to provide a big box on a big fighter, on a big aircraft, and it was working.

00:12:46: There were enough place on it, enough power, enough place.

00:12:51: due to this trend of having even smaller remote carrier.

00:12:57: You need to adapt.

00:12:58: We have much bigger constraints.

00:13:00: to provide something much smaller and also products that will maybe fly only once.

00:13:07: Yeah, exactly.

00:13:09: And it's a big trend that we are currently working on, how to develop a product that will be fitted for such a small remote carrier, but also for bigger platforms, how to make it scalable and interoperable at the same time.

00:13:30: And the three lines, so data link, multi-link, and scalability, are the drivers for our new developments.

00:13:39: Our new developments are fitting to this.

00:13:42: Data link, new kind of communication management, and some multi-platform architecture.

00:13:49: Okay, dear podcast lovers, at this point I would like to highlight that our solution at Roland Schwarz for F-Cas is not a platform oriented solution, but it's a platform agnostic solution, which is adaptable to whatever is needed.

00:14:03: Because in AFKAS, please correct me if I'm wrong, Maxime, we're not talking only about the air domain, but also about different domains like sea domain, land domain, and what Rodin Schwarz is developing here.

00:14:15: and we adapted the query, yeah, to whatever is needed on land or the sea.

00:14:20: For instance, a soldier could Have our our directed comms solution at the end on his helmet.

00:14:27: our ship

00:14:28: could have a more Robust a more powerful solution.

00:14:32: Mm-hmm.

00:14:33: Yeah.

00:14:33: Yeah, yeah, of course F cast is the a from.

00:14:37: F cast is mostly for air domain.

00:14:40: We have to focus sometimes on one one domain for the program.

00:14:44: Yeah for the program is mostly in the fields of aeronautics But we are involved already some parallel initiatives in order to consider it globally to provide a multi-domain solution.

00:14:57: And dear listeners, it might be interesting.

00:15:00: You were able to see this at Paris Airshow and at other larger exhibitions in the future.

00:15:06: So please join us at these exhibitions.

00:15:09: You might even see Maxime there and we'll be able to tell you all about it and you'll be able to see the product that we're... Sorry, no, not the product, but the technology.

00:15:19: that we're talking about.

00:15:20: Yeah,

00:15:20: thank you.

00:15:21: Me or my team is always happy to answer questions about this.

00:15:26: I'm very lucky to have a passionate team working on this program.

00:15:31: And they are always happy to share these new technologies with you.

00:15:39: And an older version of this technology is operational, so it's proven technology.

00:15:45: Yeah, we have something already on the shelf to fulfill most of these needs already.

00:15:53: It has a similar technology, but it has to be matured again on it in order to fulfill these new needs coming from the market.

00:16:02: But for most of the use cases that we currently have today, we have a solution that we can provide already.

00:16:12: OK, maybe we can come back to the initial buzzword, Combat Cloud.

00:16:15: You were talking about it at Red Greening.

00:16:18: When I'm thinking of a cloud, I'm thinking of internet.

00:16:20: I'm thinking of security of virus.

00:16:23: And this brings me to the topic of cyber security somehow.

00:16:26: So

00:16:27: you've explained already that we have directed communication, that it's jamming proof, and so on.

00:16:33: Is it just the pure fact that it's directed, which makes it more efficient according to cyber attacks?

00:16:39: Or is there more means to

00:16:41: it, like

00:16:42: measures which we want to implement?

00:16:46: This directed is the first physical protection that we have.

00:16:53: I mean, it's the lower of physics.

00:16:55: If you have a directed beam, it's more difficult to intercept it or to detect it.

00:17:02: The security is an additive additional layer to secure your transmission.

00:17:10: And it's essential to do this because you will have to exchange this information on a contested environment and you need to ensure your communication with the right partners in a secure way.

00:17:25: So the topic of cybersecurity or security as a whole is of course one of the fundamentals, the basis for all our communication system that we provided already, with the M-IIIAR, with the sovereign family, security was the basis.

00:17:45: And for these new developments, it is still part of the basis.

00:17:51: So that

00:17:51: means that we are also developing our own waveforms, which then are perfectly fitted for these kind of technologies?

00:17:59: Yes, it is part of the portfolio where data link is not only sending something in one direction, you have to provide as well an adapted waveform for this.

00:18:09: And this waveform is also one big challenge because we can provide waveform in some frequency bands.

00:18:16: Here you have a new frequency band, so you need to adapt your development.

00:18:22: to new kind of antennas, new kind of frequencies and this is one of the big development tasks that we are working on currently.

00:18:31: I mean we must say that we are the best company to do it.

00:18:34: We have also to test the measurement equipment to make sure that the frequencies at which we are developing are also tested.

00:18:42: equality.

00:18:44: This is what we are promoting, of course to the customers, but at the same time we want to ensure that we are still interoperable with other systems which do not have maybe the same communication systems as we have.

00:19:02: This concept of interoperability can still be ensured even if you have another platform.

00:19:08: having a completely different type of communication can be ensured with this concept of communication management, this multi-link.

00:19:18: The best case would be everyone is buying the same solution.

00:19:22: But even if it's not the case, we are able to ensure this interoperability.

00:19:28: Usually that is based on standards provided by the NATO or other organizations.

00:19:34: Is there already a standard for F-CAS, which is defined or is under development?

00:19:41: The standards for this NGWS program is currently part of this international program, how to ensure the communication between France, Germany and Spain.

00:19:53: But this is not the only place where Rodin Schwartz or FCMS is active.

00:19:58: We are working a lot on the European part through the European Defense Funds Program in order to ensure an interoperability or a standard definition within Europe and NATO standards, of course.

00:20:14: Yeah, but this is part of our core neuro here.

00:20:17: Yeah.

00:20:18: Well, dear listener, you might have read one of our press releases last year where we talked about the AI backbone for AFCUS and our subsidiary Schoenhofer Engineering.

00:20:30: Artificial intelligence plays a crucial role in AFCUS.

00:20:34: Yes, artificial intelligence is one of the biggest new leverages for new technologies that we could experience in the last years.

00:20:43: It plays a crucial role, I confirm.

00:20:45: Our point of view on this is that it has to be controlled and certifiable.

00:20:50: And the backbone, the KE backbone, it has to be a German program.

00:20:55: So sorry, there are some shortcuts in German.

00:20:58: The KE backbone is providing this.

00:21:01: And it provides a platform.

00:21:03: that enables collaborative AI development, not everyone working on their own, to collaborate on these developments, and to ease its future certification.

00:21:14: Because we need to keep in mind this AI is working well on your laptops, on your computers, but future AI solutions that we are developing will fly.

00:21:26: And you're not allowed to fade in flight in the air.

00:21:31: So the human being will not disappear.

00:21:33: KIA or AI will just support the human being in taking decisions.

00:21:39: Of course, you have this concept of human on the loop, so the AI can take decision.

00:21:46: It's still on a study basis.

00:21:48: It's still being developed here.

00:21:49: The AI can't take decision or support decision, but the human always has the possibility of intervening.

00:21:57: and take control of the situation.

00:22:00: It's a new, a completely new approach on how to fly.

00:22:05: And it has to be implemented accordingly.

00:22:09: Well, that makes me really look forward to the next Maverick movie, where you have pilots and robots flying next to each other.

00:22:18: Let's see if something like that comes up.

00:22:20: I'm really, yeah, impatient to see the next up-gen three talking about this.

00:22:26: would be cool.

00:22:28: Well, thank you, Maxime.

00:22:29: Excellent to have you here.

00:22:31: Yeah, thank you, Dennis, for inviting me here.

00:22:33: It was a, yeah, it was a really exciting interview.

00:22:37: Always glad to give some explanations about such complex programming.

00:22:41: Thank you.

00:22:42: Excellent.

00:22:43: And thank you, dear listener, for joining us on Signals, the Wodern-Schwarz Defense Podcast.

00:22:48: If you liked today's episode, please subscribe, rate and review us and follow us on our social media channel.

00:22:56: That's all folks.

00:22:57: See you later.

00:22:59: Bye bye.